Comments on: the literal word or the actual word? http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/ one step closer Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:41:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: B...D http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-3113 B...D Mon, 03 Aug 2009 04:19:02 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-3113 "There is a beautiful balance between the written Word and the spoken/whispered Word. The second is surely subject to the first." Amen. And... "I “hear” from God sometimes. I have been taught to check myself against the Bible, if there is a conflict, stick with the Bible." Amen. BD “There is a beautiful balance between the written Word and the spoken/whispered Word. The second is surely subject to the first.”

Amen.

And…

“I “hear” from God sometimes. I have been taught to check myself against the Bible, if there is a conflict, stick with the Bible.”

Amen.

BD

]]> By: SunflowerRae http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-3025 SunflowerRae Sat, 18 Jul 2009 04:46:10 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-3025 I "hear" from God sometimes. I have been taught to check myself against the bible, if there is a conflict, stick with the bible. But the problem I have is that some people who think they are hearing from God are not. It is scary because they start other religions, lead people away from Jesus, use it as an excuse to sin, etc.... If we just start "listening for God" and NOT referencing the bible we start going down a road in which no one knows what to believe or what is true. I “hear” from God sometimes. I have been taught to check myself against the bible, if there is a conflict, stick with the bible. But the problem I have is that some people who think they are hearing from God are not. It is scary because they start other religions, lead people away from Jesus, use it as an excuse to sin, etc…. If we just start “listening for God” and NOT referencing the bible we start going down a road in which no one knows what to believe or what is true.

]]> By: FamilyGirl http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-3005 FamilyGirl Sun, 12 Jul 2009 06:57:01 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-3005 To the original post! It is amazingly true that the Word really needs to be studied in the original language and in historical and literary context before a doctrine can be made with any hope of accuracy. The more I study about it the more it is clear how nebulous some things can be. However, it is also in many, many places extremely direct and clear. Happylad, there is a beautiful balance between the wriiten Word and the spoken/whispered Word. The second is surely subject to the first. To the original post! It is amazingly true that the Word really needs to be studied in the original language and in historical and literary context before a doctrine can be made with any hope of accuracy. The more I study about it the more it is clear how nebulous some things can be. However, it is also in many, many places extremely direct and clear. Happylad, there is a beautiful balance between the wriiten Word and the spoken/whispered Word. The second is surely subject to the first.

]]> By: Nigel http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2982 Nigel Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:44:06 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2982 I like the way you described the way that God speaks through the Bible. It paints a picture for me of a spiritual pavement which the Spirit can travel upon. When we see that scripture is given story and context, life and breath beyond the literal words on the page- it becomes a powerful tool in the hands of a powerful God. To reduce it to anything less is to neuter the scriptures of their beauty, power, and wisdom. I like the way you described the way that God speaks through the Bible. It paints a picture for me of a spiritual pavement which the Spirit can travel upon. When we see that scripture is given story and context, life and breath beyond the literal words on the page- it becomes a powerful tool in the hands of a powerful God. To reduce it to anything less is to neuter the scriptures of their beauty, power, and wisdom.

]]> By: Larry Hughes http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2979 Larry Hughes Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:48:34 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2979 Interesting that the bible was written by humans and on this planet. As a matter of fact the Bible was written in it's current form about 300 AD by the then new bishops of Christianity. Where did they get their words and wisdom from? Can we assume they were inspired by ancient text and scrolls written by prophets, apostles and scribes comissioned by these poeple through the grace of God or the verbal communication with God directly? Why did God communicate with them several thousand years ago? They could not have been more intelligent than us today. Are we really that much more intelligent? Perhaps not. Perhaps he just wanted to check in on his creation and guide who he though was worthy of his Grace to lead the sinnerss back into the fold. Considering every time God turned around His creation was sinning thier back ends off and mocking Him, what else was He to do? Ok God sent His only Son to even help guide the siners back to repentance. What did they do? They nailed Him to the Cross for teaching of a new found way to worship God and obey the law of Moses. Sadly the high priest of that day really wasn't too happy with His meddling in their controlled and safe rule of the believers.( Ironically Jesus death and arrival was prophesied since Genesis). No one does hear from God or Jesus directly any more in most cases I would imagine. Can you really blame God or Jesus? That is the charge now set up for the Holy Spirit to handle. As you recall Jesus stated in his last visit to the Apostles "My work is done. I am leaving now. It is all up to you. Go to Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit will come over you to help spread the Good News". Ok. He did come back to talk to Paul in an apparent visual confrontation to stop Pauls actions against the Christians and believers of his day which led Paul to be the driving force to win others ( including Gentiles) to Christ. And today we are to continue as modern day disciples to spread the Good news about the Lord God. We are not to sit and wait for something to happen. I don't think He meant to theorize or debate the purpose but to win souls to Christ. What do I know? I am just a student of the Bible, not a worldly scholar. Interesting that the bible was written by humans and on this planet. As a matter of fact the Bible was written in it’s current form about 300 AD by the then new bishops of Christianity. Where did they get their words and wisdom from?

Can we assume they were inspired by ancient text and scrolls written by prophets, apostles and scribes comissioned by these poeple through the grace of God or the verbal communication with God directly? Why did God communicate with them several thousand years ago? They could not have been more intelligent than us today. Are we really that much more intelligent? Perhaps not.

Perhaps he just wanted to check in on his creation and guide who he though was worthy of his Grace to lead the sinnerss back into the fold. Considering every time God turned around His creation was sinning thier back ends off and mocking Him, what else was He to do?

Ok God sent His only Son to even help guide the siners back to repentance. What did they do? They nailed Him to the Cross for teaching of a new found way to worship God and obey the law of Moses. Sadly the high priest of that day really wasn’t too happy with His meddling in their controlled and safe rule of the believers.( Ironically Jesus death and arrival was prophesied since Genesis).

No one does hear from God or Jesus directly any more in most cases I would imagine. Can you really blame God or Jesus? That is the charge now set up for the Holy Spirit to handle. As you recall Jesus stated in his last visit to the Apostles “My work is done. I am leaving now. It is all up to you. Go to Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit will come over you to help spread the Good News”. Ok. He did come back to talk to Paul in an apparent visual confrontation to stop Pauls actions against the Christians and believers of his day which led Paul to be the driving force to win others ( including Gentiles) to Christ.

And today we are to continue as modern day disciples to spread the Good news about the Lord God. We are not to sit and wait for something to happen. I don’t think He meant to theorize or debate the purpose but to win souls to Christ.

What do I know? I am just a student of the Bible, not a worldly scholar.

]]> By: clif http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2977 clif Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:40:53 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2977 I can't help but give a reply to these postings, all of which I find fascinating since in one form or another we are talking about the letter verses, or in relation to, the Spirit. And of course "the voice." I struggled for years trying to "hear God" either through scripture or through my own style of meditation, which was more of a conversation with God than meditation as most would understand it. It was only when I started seriously listening for what the Spirit was saying to others (small group prayer, ministry time, family) that I began what has become an awesome journey of what I call "hearing God for others." THere is something in this " others" focus that really broke things open for me. And it is in hearing what the Spirit in saying for others that I more fully hear Him for myself. ONe might ask, how do you really know that you are hearing God? Great question, one which I think is a healthy to ask ourselves often. My answer, time and practice... and many times hearing things that I would never think myself about someone, really really good things, things that speak to their future and give them hope. I have learned that He has a much higher opinion of us than we have of ourselves, or our friends and neighbors. Thus the "others" part of the equation helps me to understand how He feels about me. I use scripture as my guide, of course. I find His thoughts about others, often or especially for those steeped in a mess of mistakes, to be gentle, loving, patient and always forward looking. There are many times when my thoughts are leaning toward judgement, and then I sense the Spirit saying words that I couldn't possibly come up with, or would choose to say. Just being honest here. And please understand that it's not a "voice", for me at least, but more like thoughts passing through that are just as easy to miss as catch. So back to the "literal." It is the old letter of the law verses the spirit of the law struggle. I often wonder what Jesus was thinking when he was confronted with the woman caught in adultery. As he paused to write in the dirt (and I think about God writing on stone tablets for Moses)was he thinking about the letter of the law? Was he thinking "boy, how they have missed what we were trying to communicate?" Or was he just buying time to think? Whatever the reason for pausing, He found the balance between the law and the love of the Spirit that he came to demonstrate. While not minimizing the "it is written" part His answer allowed room for mercy. Mercy that ultimately was given by a crowd bent on destruction....after each one took a quick inventory of their own lives. An inventory that the "law" made possible. THe "literal" does not remove the space that allows mercy to surface. In proper context it enhances it. THe focus on others helps me see(and hear)the reflection of what I so desperately need. And of course, giving others the permission to hear God for me is all part of the equation. And yes that can be scary. I can’t help but give a reply to these postings, all of which I find fascinating since in one form or another we are talking about the letter verses, or in relation to, the Spirit. And of course “the voice.”

I struggled for years trying to “hear God” either through scripture or through my own style of meditation, which was more of a conversation with God than meditation as most would understand it.
It was only when I started seriously listening for what the Spirit was saying to others (small group prayer, ministry time, family) that I began what has become an awesome journey of what I call “hearing God for others.” THere is something in this ” others” focus that really broke things open for me.
And it is in hearing what the Spirit in saying for others that I more fully hear Him for myself.

ONe might ask, how do you really know that you are hearing God? Great question, one which I think is a healthy to ask ourselves often. My answer, time and practice… and many times hearing things that I would never think myself about someone, really really good things, things that speak to their future and give them hope. I have learned that He has a much higher opinion of us than we have of ourselves, or our friends and neighbors. Thus the “others” part of the equation helps me to understand how He feels about me.

I use scripture as my guide, of course. I find His thoughts about others, often or especially for those steeped in a mess of mistakes, to be gentle, loving, patient and always forward looking. There are many times when my thoughts are leaning toward judgement, and then I sense the Spirit saying words that I couldn’t possibly come up with, or would choose to say. Just being honest here.

And please understand that it’s not a “voice”, for me at least, but more like thoughts passing through that are just as easy to miss as catch.

So back to the “literal.” It is the old letter of the law verses the spirit of the law struggle. I often wonder what Jesus was thinking when he was confronted with the woman caught in adultery. As he paused to write in the dirt (and I think about God writing on stone tablets for Moses)was he thinking about the letter of the law? Was he thinking “boy, how they have missed what we were trying to communicate?” Or was he just buying time to think? Whatever the reason for pausing, He found the balance between the law and the love of the Spirit that he came to demonstrate. While not minimizing the “it is written” part His answer allowed room for mercy. Mercy that ultimately was given by a crowd bent on destruction….after each one took a quick inventory of their own lives. An inventory that the “law” made possible.

THe “literal” does not remove the space that allows mercy to surface. In proper context it enhances it.

THe focus on others helps me see(and hear)the reflection of what I so desperately need. And of course, giving others the permission to hear God for me is all part of the equation. And yes that can be scary.

]]> By: Humphreys http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2976 Humphreys Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:32:00 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2976 happylad, when you listen to mozart, do you say, "that's the product of a fallible human," or, "what beautiful, inspired music!" aren't both true? reductionist thinking leads nowhere. happylad, when you listen to mozart, do you say, “that’s the product of a fallible human,” or, “what beautiful, inspired music!” aren’t both true? reductionist thinking leads nowhere.

]]> By: Humphreys http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2975 Humphreys Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:26:29 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2975 lucy, is god sometimes brutal and cruel? is god hate, as well as love? no. god is not a person. the descriptions of god being angry or hateful are anthropomorphisms. god is always love, even when we feel his wrath. lucy, is god sometimes brutal and cruel? is god hate, as well as love? no. god is not a person. the descriptions of god being angry or hateful are anthropomorphisms. god is always love, even when we feel his wrath.

]]> By: Lucy http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2966 Lucy Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:22:09 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2966 My biological father is loving, self-sacrificing, brutal, cruel, banal, inspired, seething with anger, gentle, insensitive, boring, interesting, wise, foolish, prissy, manly, outgoing, isolated, grumpy, selfish, and so on. My biological father, after all is said, is through all his moods and modes, loving. God is a person, something like my biological father, but larger. Much larger in the frame of the universe. And the Bible gives us glimpses of this complex paradoxical person. Does God have to be only loving in order for us to understand him as a loving God? No, I don't think so. Isn't the Bible the window or the movie on God? God speaks to all of us daily in our own lives through the people in our lives, the shifting circumstances of our lives, and the events of our lives. He is speaking to us all the time. He is vitally with us, immediate to us. And the Bible shows us that this is so. My biological father is loving, self-sacrificing, brutal, cruel, banal, inspired, seething with anger, gentle, insensitive, boring, interesting, wise, foolish, prissy, manly, outgoing, isolated, grumpy, selfish, and so on. My biological father, after all is said, is through all his moods and modes, loving. God is a person, something like my biological father, but larger. Much larger in the frame of the universe. And the Bible gives us glimpses of this complex paradoxical person. Does God have to be only loving in order for us to understand him as a loving God? No, I don’t think so. Isn’t the Bible the window or the movie on God? God speaks to all of us daily in our own lives through the people in our lives, the shifting circumstances of our lives, and the events of our lives. He is speaking to us all the time. He is vitally with us, immediate to us. And the Bible shows us that this is so.

]]> By: happylad http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/24/the-literal-word-or-the-actual-word/comment-page-1/#comment-2965 happylad Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:10:49 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=606#comment-2965 Dave, Before you start one-on-one dialogue on faith, doubt and hearing the voice of God with Chris, please remember his words here: [P1] All human beings are fallible. [P2] All the books ever written on this planet were written by human beings. [P3] All 66 books of the bible were written on this planet. [C] Therefore, all 66 books of the bible were written by fallible human beings. I have studied the bible, sometimes very little, sometimes a lot, over the last 36 years. I have never seen any evidence that any part of the bible was written or inspired by anyone other than fallible human beings. If you have evidence to the contrary, I invite you to present it. Dave,

Before you start one-on-one dialogue on faith, doubt and hearing the voice of God with Chris, please remember his words here:

[P1] All human beings are fallible.

[P2] All the books ever written on this planet were written by human beings.

[P3] All 66 books of the bible were written on this planet.

[C] Therefore, all 66 books of the bible were written by fallible human beings.

I have studied the bible, sometimes very little, sometimes a lot, over the last 36 years. I have never seen any evidence that any part of the bible was written or inspired by anyone other than fallible human beings. If you have evidence to the contrary, I invite you to present it.

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