Comments on: we need to get our gentle back http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/ one step closer Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:41:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2973 ken Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:16:57 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2973 happylad, I think some common ground is emerging between my posts and some of your responses. Sinners DO sin naturally. WE sinners DO sin naturally. And I think some of my concerns about the way american evangelicals approach sin has to do with underestimating this. There is a sense that by conforming to a particular evangelical culture's mores regarding sin--a VERY superficial understandin of sin, btw--WE, the evangelicals are in some different status than whoever the outside group is. This offers a powerful psychic comfort but it is compelely faslse and abhorrent to the Spirit. It is an idolatrous comfort that has nothing to do with God. It is the comfort of hell--sweet in the mouth, but sour in the stomach. The awareness of sin that you articulated--how profoundly natural it is for us sinners is a key to a more humane and divine approach to sin, a Jesus approach, that discomforts the comfortable (those of us who think we've got sin figured out and it's our job to apply our knowledge) and to comfort the conflicted. happylad, I think some common ground is emerging between my posts and some of your responses. Sinners DO sin naturally. WE sinners DO sin naturally. And I think some of my concerns about the way american evangelicals approach sin has to do with underestimating this. There is a sense that by conforming to a particular evangelical culture’s mores regarding sin–a VERY superficial understandin of sin, btw–WE, the evangelicals are in some different status than whoever the outside group is. This offers a powerful psychic comfort but it is compelely faslse and abhorrent to the Spirit. It is an idolatrous comfort that has nothing to do with God. It is the comfort of hell–sweet in the mouth, but sour in the stomach. The awareness of sin that you articulated–how profoundly natural it is for us sinners is a key to a more humane and divine approach to sin, a Jesus approach, that discomforts the comfortable (those of us who think we’ve got sin figured out and it’s our job to apply our knowledge) and to comfort the conflicted.

]]> By: Eric C http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2971 Eric C Sat, 27 Jun 2009 04:58:29 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2971 Joao, I will brace myself. I'll bet that Muslims too remake themselves in the image of who/what they worship. But the Muslim world hasn't always been so radicalized as it is now. Joao,

I will brace myself. I’ll bet that Muslims too remake themselves in the image of who/what they worship. But the Muslim world hasn’t always been so radicalized as it is now.

]]> By: happylad http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2970 happylad Sat, 27 Jun 2009 02:18:25 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2970 Eric C. - thank you for your beautiful post. I didn't think you would cringe at all of my comments though. I thought you might cringe at my statement that sinners sin and that is what comes naturally to them (not that it doesn't come quite easily to those of us in the fold as well). Again, thank you for your generous and beautiful response to me. I appreciate the post AND I appreciate you! :) Eric C. – thank you for your beautiful post. I didn’t think you would cringe at all of my comments though. I thought you might cringe at my statement that sinners sin and that is what comes naturally to them (not that it doesn’t come quite easily to those of us in the fold as well).

Again, thank you for your generous and beautiful response to me. I appreciate the post AND I appreciate you! :)

]]> By: joao http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2969 joao Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:04:25 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2969 Eric, Please try the Quran. I have, but I won't spoil it for you. :) Eric,

Please try the Quran. I have, but I won’t spoil it for you. :)

]]> By: Eric C http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2968 Eric C Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:33:08 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2968 BTW, I meant to put my last post in the "literal word" thread, but oh well... Happylad, I haven't cringed at anything you have written in this thread. In particular, I love what you wrote in post #10 -- that you weep with others -- and in the last post -- that before you correct someone, you want to be sure they believe that you love them. That's powerful. That's beautiful. You put their dignity before their depravity. And even after you've offered your correction -- and even if they refuse your correction -- you never deny their God-given dignity. That's a transforming way to approach others. BTW, I meant to put my last post in the “literal word” thread, but oh well…

Happylad,

I haven’t cringed at anything you have written in this thread. In particular, I love what you wrote in post #10 — that you weep with others — and in the last post — that before you correct someone, you want to be sure they believe that you love them.

That’s powerful. That’s beautiful. You put their dignity before their depravity. And even after you’ve offered your correction — and even if they refuse your correction — you never deny their God-given dignity.

That’s a transforming way to approach others.

]]> By: Eric C http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2967 Eric C Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:22:53 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2967 Inspiration. No doubt about it, for me anyway: the Bible is filled with powerfully inspiring life-changing passages, alongside quite a few that -- as I mentioned in post #60 of 2 of Ken's "worldview" blog -- diminish man and strip him of his dignity. So for me, reading the Bible is a dramatic experience as I embrace some passages and recoil at others. As far as scriptures go, the Bible is all I've ever read. In the next few years, I want to read others: the Koran, etc., and consider whether my reactions are anywhere similar. I'll bet that they, too, have some of both: powerfully inspiring verses that draw people in; and verses that diminish and/or damn those who question the faith. Has anyone else read some of these other books and care to comment on my future journey? Inspiration.

No doubt about it, for me anyway: the Bible is filled with powerfully inspiring life-changing passages, alongside quite a few that — as I mentioned in post #60 of 2 of Ken’s “worldview” blog — diminish man and strip him of his dignity. So for me, reading the Bible is a dramatic experience as I embrace some passages and recoil at others.

As far as scriptures go, the Bible is all I’ve ever read. In the next few years, I want to read others: the Koran, etc., and consider whether my reactions are anywhere similar. I’ll bet that they, too, have some of both: powerfully inspiring verses that draw people in; and verses that diminish and/or damn those who question the faith.

Has anyone else read some of these other books and care to comment on my future journey?

]]> By: happylad http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2963 happylad Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:49:56 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2963 I will NEVER point out a weak area or area of sin in another brother or sister's life until I have firmly established relationship,trust and the surety that they know I love them and care for them. If I bring any corrective word, I always begin it with "Do you believe I love you and care for you?" Some of my friends know the way I operate and they tend to cringe and say "Oh no, what have I done now". It's a bit of a joke between us. They do the same for me. We're not obsessed with it. We don't put undo stress on each others weaknesses, but we do love one another and want to see us free our hearts and lives so that we can receive more of God's love. I, however, do not do these things with those who are not brothers and sisters. Those who have not yet entered the fold are not to be judged by me. They are doing what comes natural to their nature (I'm pretty sure Eric C. is cringing as he reads this comment). Without the Holy Spirit sinners sin. It's our nature as sinners. So I do have a different standard with those not yet in the fold. I will NEVER point out a weak area or area of sin in another brother or sister’s life until I have firmly established relationship,trust and the surety that they know I love them and care for them.

If I bring any corrective word, I always begin it with “Do you believe I love you and care for you?”

Some of my friends know the way I operate and they tend to cringe and say “Oh no, what have I done now”. It’s a bit of a joke between us. They do the same for me. We’re not obsessed with it. We don’t put undo stress on each others weaknesses, but we do love one another and want to see us free our hearts and lives so that we can receive more of God’s love.

I, however, do not do these things with those who are not brothers and sisters. Those who have not yet entered the fold are not to be judged by me. They are doing what comes natural to their nature (I’m pretty sure Eric C. is cringing as he reads this comment). Without the Holy Spirit sinners sin. It’s our nature as sinners. So I do have a different standard with those not yet in the fold.

]]> By: Brian http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2956 Brian Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:20:41 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2956 Bob, I pretty much agree with you on everything you wrote. Certainly God is patient and we should be as well. I'm encouraged to read your affirmation that "I believe it does much harm to ignore sin in people's lives." That's not the feeling I get from many of the posts on Ken's blog. Bob,

I pretty much agree with you on everything you wrote. Certainly God is patient and we should be as well. I’m encouraged to read your affirmation that “I believe it does much harm to ignore sin in people’s lives.” That’s not the feeling I get from many of the posts on Ken’s blog.

]]> By: Bob http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2955 Bob Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:31:11 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2955 Brian, You ask: "would you reach a point, when trust has been established, that you would address the need to leave the sin?" Yes. I have and will. My wife refers jokingly to my general ministry style as the church of the "swift kick in the rear end". I've learned over time to be more gentle but I believe it does much harm to ignore sin in people's lives. I wish people had been more direct with me over the years. But the real crux of the matter comes next. After I share, how do I respond to their reaction? What if they shrug it off or refuse to accept my position? It often takes time for the Holy Spirit to work into someone's hardened heart. Will I have the patience to remain gentle and continue to actively love this person? In the best case, they'll repent and ask for forgiveness, but even then true transformation will take time (hence our Lord's admonition to forgive someone ad infinitum). The truth is our God is patient, always hoping for the best and we need to be too. We're priests, not judges. Brian,
You ask: “would you reach a point, when trust has been established, that you would address the need to leave the sin?”

Yes. I have and will. My wife refers jokingly to my general ministry style as the church of the “swift kick in the rear end”. I’ve learned over time to be more gentle but I believe it does much harm to ignore sin in people’s lives. I wish people had been more direct with me over the years.

But the real crux of the matter comes next. After I share, how do I respond to their reaction? What if they shrug it off or refuse to accept my position? It often takes time for the Holy Spirit to work into someone’s hardened heart. Will I have the patience to remain gentle and continue to actively love this person? In the best case, they’ll repent and ask for forgiveness, but even then true transformation will take time (hence our Lord’s admonition to forgive someone ad infinitum). The truth is our God is patient, always hoping for the best and we need to be too.

We’re priests, not judges.

]]> By: happylad http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/06/19/we-need-to-get-our-gentle-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2950 happylad Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:02:36 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=594#comment-2950 Brian you said: I guess I’m just incredibly blessed, because I just haven’t run into these unkind, unmerciful, grace-resenting Christians that so many seem to encounter so regularly. I've had the same experience. I'm a grace, love and mercy of God junky as are most of my friends and Christian cohorts. I hold to the mindset that "You who are spiritual, restore you brother in sin in a spirit of meekness and love". I thank God that I've had brother's and sisters in Christ who have gently and lovingly pointed out weak and sinful areas of my life and walk with me in removing those things that hinder God's love. Brian you said:

I guess I’m just incredibly blessed, because I just haven’t run into these unkind, unmerciful, grace-resenting Christians that so many seem to encounter so regularly.

I’ve had the same experience. I’m a grace, love and mercy of God junky as are most of my friends and Christian cohorts.

I hold to the mindset that “You who are spiritual, restore you brother in sin in a spirit of meekness and love”. I thank God that I’ve had brother’s and sisters in Christ who have gently and lovingly pointed out weak and sinful areas of my life and walk with me in removing those things that hinder God’s love.

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