There’s a reason for that.

Heh heh

Big Daddy
Somebody else tell him!

You no doubt believe that no one can come to the Father but through the son Jesus.

Are you suggesting that no one can come to Jesus but through the Bible?

So it’s a Quarternity we must believe in?

1. Does the Bible demand our worship? (e.g., daily Bible Study; read through the Bible every year; etc.).

2. Does it demand that we be faithful to its every teaching?

3. Does it damn to hell those who question disturbing parts of it?

4. Is to question the Bible the very essence of human pride, rebellion, arrogance, and self-made autonomy?

5. If a person questions the Bible’s authority on any point, do “Bible believers” act as if that person had insulted their god? Do they feel anger, bitterness or resentment?

Hmm… Very much like a deity. Substitute any pagan god for the Bible in question #s 1-5 above, and you know what I’m getting at.

So much like a deity, that I cannot tell the difference.

How do you know Jesus said that?

BD
Wow! That was easy…

“The bible is the final authority in all matters of life and faith”

Do evangelicals hold the bible in higher regard than Jesus, who himself said “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28)? If so, then there is a serious problem because the bible itself clearly shows where our ultimate focus should be. Jesus: “I AM the way, the truth AND the life”. Furthermore, John 5:39.

This stuff is just below the surface most of the time … many Christians effectively worship the bible by following it to the letter, which is exactly the kind of mentality Jesus came to dismantle. The “End of Religion” so to speak.

Christians, don’t misunderstand me … I think that the bible is a wonderful book of wisdom that God has partnered with humanity to create. It is full of examples of principals that we can take and port over into our lives to equip us for all kinds of goodness. But ultimately, our trajectory in any given situation must come from Jesus, and not “insert series of bible verses from the old testament and Paul”.

BD you questioned if there is even evidence that Jesus existed … the gospels ARE the evidence. They have been dated (to the best of my knowledge) to less than some decades after Jesus died, which for this time period makes them reliable and valid historical sources. They were written over vast expanses of land in completely differing contexts, and they collectively give a three-dimensional picture of Jesus. They are similar enough to be corroborative, and yet different enough to be identifiably unique. We can even see different intended audiences (i.e. the book of Luke was put together as an investigatory piece for man named Theophilus).

There is honestly no remotely reasonable evidence that I can find to believe that these books were some hoax or conspiracy, either in part nor entirety. The first Christians (literally translated “Christ-followers”) were terribly persecuted. Not exactly the kind of platform one would use to attract an audience … yet Christianity exploded for the first 100 years – why? And people CHOSE to die for it at the hands of the Romans and the Jewish elite.

It wasn’t until Rome’s take-over of Christianity that people were killed for it (and ultimately, that the essence of Christianity was covered-over and hidden beneath the veil of governance). I personally think that Christianity is finally getting back to where it belongs … as a marginalized minority movement. Though the right side of evangelical Christianity still struggles for political and social dominance so that Christianity can be spread through coercion. This just produces a lot of people who will “say” they are Christians, but who will effectually be the furthest thing from it.

BD your questioning isn’t bad … though I want to throw out a caution that leaving it at questioning without serious investigation would be irresponsible and short-sighted. I want to encourage you to research this seriously for yourself.

The problem is much more systemic than a sampling of particular passages, but here are a few examples:

1) 1 Sam. 15:2-3 — God commands the Israelites to slaughter “children and infants”

2) 2 Sam 6:2-7 — God’s anger burns against person who reflexively touches the ark of the covenant, and God smites him dead

3) Rom 9:20-22 — God prepared some people for destruction, which is God’s right to do, and man has no standing (because he has no dignity) to protest

4) 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Rev. 20:15 — eternal hell including eternal conscious torment for unbelievers

5) Deut. 22:13-21 — death penalty (at husband’s option) for woman presumed, because of lack of blood on the sheet, not to be a virgin on her wedding night

6) Lev. 20:13 — death penalty for homosexuality

Environmentalist are secular humanist? Not all of them. Some feel the climate changes are a normal cycle that has been going on since way before Bibical times. Ok Maybe the Bob Doleians are. After all, he tells us he invented the internet. Based on that (his) claim,I would have to discount his theory of Global warming caused entirely by humans.

If you look at world views by the secular humanist movement, you will realize they also have a one world political view ( absolute Socialism rule) and a one world religious view ( you are your own God). Any other religious view is pure myth with no substantiation to back it up. There is no room in their utopia for any other religion thus they will rule with an iron hand in that area too.

Now in Christianity. As the Bible dictates during the rapture, the Lord will return to Earth and judge all persons based on their service to God. Those that are judged as sinners will perish in the flaming pit with the anti christ for a thousand years. Those of us that are saved will be ruled by the Divine King (Jesus). At leasat in Christianity we do have a choice of eternal residence in the new world or heaven ( can’t figure the right place yet).

Oh! As a last thought or two. Many digs in the Holy Lands over the last 2 decades have uncovered evidence that the scriptures are not all myths as the Humanist would lead you to believe. There is now evidence that is unrefutable.

More Scientist are also stating that evolution of us from ape like creatures cannot be proven. There is no missing link even though the DNA is similar. They cannot explain where the Homo Sapiens ( us) came from 10,000 years ago. We did not evolve from the Cave men that were there at the same time. Some have hinted to divine creation for us as well as the entire universe.

However, all the while the Humanist scientist are scrambling to try to link it all together through evolution but so far have failed. I am sure you know who Darwin is. On his death bed he aluded to the fact that divine intervention played a greater part in evolution than he first thought and he was an athiest.

I know where your head is at, at least I think I do. You’re on that new bandwagon of “Jesus didn’t die for our sins, He came and lived so He could understand us and then we killed him” theology. It’s quite popular at the moment.

So please show me in the scriptures where man is diminished and stripped of his dignity.

Thanks!

“if that is what your religion is about, … I’d rather burn in hell….”

That’s poignant. That’s brave.

Until recently, I feared — because of Gal 1:8-9 (let anyone who preaches anything different be accursed!); Rev. 22:18-19 (if you add or subtract from the Bible you will be damned); and other passages — that to question the authority of the Divine Text would put my soul in eternal peril.

You see, it’s not easy to leave fundamentalism. It’s a very scary thing. That’s why fundamentalists really feel that they are being pushed off the edge of a precipice — an eternal precipice — with all of the challenges to the veracity of the Divine Text.

So everyone should understand why so much irritation is expressed. Fundamentalists need the world’s patience and sympathy. They feel a real, visceral, deep-in-the-soul despair over the thought of diminishing the Bible.

It’s a despair that competes strongly with the despair that parts of the Bible diminish man and strip him of his dignity.

Thus the struggle; the deep wrestling; even the punches thrown from one side to the other.

If this discussion has gotten heated, it is because it touches on deep things that really matter. So please understand that.

After the heat dissipates, we should all remember that God made each one of us in his Image, and loves each one of us fiercely, and so we should too.

You claim: “I simply quoted your many texts.” You did not “quote “me. I stand by the things I’ve written, not by your re-characterization of what I wrote.

You also say: “You have not answered my questions.”

Happylad, yes I have…again and again!

You asked me: “How did you decide His words were good, but others were not?”

I answered your question: “The biggest question I ask is this: is it a doctrine or teaching that diminishes man or strips him of his dignity?…”

That, Happylad, is a significant part of “how I decide.”

And in other threads, I have also argued that one can test a doctrine by whether it leads to despair, by God’s moral & natural revelation to man, by testing the fruits of the doctrine, and even by the Holy Spirit, who is capable of leading to truth.

What I haven’t seen from the other side of the debate is a response that debunks every truth test apart from Scripture, without itself contradicting that very Scripture.

Yet the implied argument is always that we can’t be certain of anything apart from the Divine Text. It’s either the Divine Text or a nihilistic abyss. But Scripture itself does not support that view.

Why thank you! That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me on this blog. How sweet. I have to admit, a computer glitch is preventing me from reading any other part of your message, but I’m sure it’s equally as gracious.

Thanks again…

Love,

BD
Heh heh…