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love the sinner, hate the sin?
We love these sticky phrases, don’t we? Especially the ones that get us off the hook like this one does. The ones that swoop in and lift us right over the horns of the dilemma that another sticky phrase plunges us into: “judge not, lest ye be judged.” How do we do that, without all hell breaking loose? Gosh, we have to judge don’t we? He couldn’t have meant, literally, “judge not, lest ye be judged.” No, he meant judge carefully, judge wisely, judge lovingly, judge well, judge insiders. So why didn’t he just say that? Because he didn’t have us around to write his speeches for him! So we come up with our own sticky phrase to “complement” his. “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” Voila! we’re off the hook! Or are we?
How does that actually work: love the sinner, hate the sin? Easy. You love the person but you hate their sin. Exactly. You hate THEIR sin, which is easy. I hate your sin. You hate my sin. But we love each other even as we hate each others’ sins. Please, where can I can get into that community? Sounds like a wonderful place to be. Once they’ve hated each others sins away, that is. Behold the community of love that hates your sins away!
How’s that working out for you? Love the sinner, hate the sin. How’s that working out in your marriage, say? Honey I love you, but I hate your sin. I love you too sweetheart, but I hate your sin even more. Good night.
As a pastor, you get a good chance to practice “love the sinner, hate the sin.” I find that there are only certain sins though, that I actually hate. I don’t hate greed. I don’t hate gluttony. I don’t really hate fornication. (Don’t tell me I’m supposed to. I already know that.) The fact is, I sympathize with these sins. I can totally understand how someone might slip in their direction.
I’m very suspicious of the fact that so many heterosexuals are so adept at hating the sin of those who crave sexual union with their own gender. It seems as though we ought to distrust convenient, easy-to-come-by hate.
The Sin I Hate With a Passion
Now take my hatred of adultery. I HATE men leaving their wives for younger women. It’s so slimy. James Dobson made it easy for Newt Gingrich to apologize on his radio show for leaving his cancer ridden wife for a young intern, at the time Gingrich was busy condemning Bill Clinton for his attentions to a young intern. I wanted to cancel my subscription to Focus on the Family. And James Dobson has been faithful to his wife for longer than I’ve been alive. Let’s just say it didn’t put me in a judge not, lest ye be judged mood.
I knew a guy who left his wife after she was diagnosed with MS. I wanted to throttle him. I’m sorry, I forgot. I loved him, but I hated his sin. I wanted to throttle his sin–choke it, kill it. Only it was in him. As Paul put it so concretely: his sin was residing in his members. One particular member, actually. Give me the box cutters and I’ll take care of that sin for you, buster.
Hate is not pretty, is it?
I really do have a thing about men who leave their wives for younger women. I judge this harshly, I really do. Or do I judge them harshly? How would I tell the difference?
On a lot other sins, I’m a softie. I understand. I’m sympathetic. I don’t come down so hard. Ask people who worry about me. They worry that I’m not tough enough on sin from the pulpit, or rather, the music stand. Usually not their sins, of course. Rarely do I get special requests to condemn these.
But I can say with confidence that I hate these guys doing this. (I’m back to the adulterers now.) What was that I just said? I hate these guys doing this. Does that mean I hate thse guys or that I hate these guys while they are doing this or that I hate it that these guys are doing this? See that’s the thing about hate. It’s a tiger by the tail. I try to sic him on the sin, but he’s hungry for the sinner.
Doesn’t it seem as though hate is not very interested in abstractions like sins separated from persons? Hate is looking for someONE to hate not someTHING. Like that Jefferson Airplane tune, “You gotta find somebody to love.” Or in this case, hate.
I haven’t had much luck being a redemptive voice with a lot of these men whose sin I hate. Perhaps they were able to feel the fact that I hate their sin so they were not eager to open up to me. Usually, these guys just slink away from the church and don’t answer my phone calls. With a few notable exceptions.
Maybe I’m Just No Good At It
Perhaps it’s just that I’m not very good at this hating the sin business. Correction: I’m VERY good at this hating business. It comes very naturally, once I give it a little room to breathe.
Hate. Meditate on that word. Murmur it over and over. Hate, hate, hate, hate. Do you like what it does inside? Me too. Delicious. I especially enjoy hating other people’s sins, which is the beauty of “love the sinner, hate the sin.”
But what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. So how does that work for you? Try loving yourself and hating your sin. Consider one of your besetting sins. Now meditate on that sin saying, I hate my sin, I hate my sin. This is how men trapped in pornography feel about their pornography. They hate it. It doesn’t get them very far, though, because hatred isn’t much of a redemptive thing, and it’s difficult to aim it precisely, at the division between joint and marrow, at the mystical boundary between the sinner and his sin.
So this is the problem with “love the sinner, hate the sin.” It sounds so crisp and clean, like a scalpel. But in reality, it’s a rusty butter knife. May I take out your infected appendix with my rusty butter knife? Granted, “love the sinner, hate the sin,” is a big improvement over “hate the sinner, hate the sin.”
Maybe it’s just me that is the problem. Maybe everyone else is good at this. But I find my own hatred very difficult to wield.
I’m sure one could quote chapter and verse about hating sin. Especially from the Psalms. The Psalmists were good at praying things like, I hate their guts! Correction: I hate their sins!
I Love You, But I Hate Your Guts!
Actually, why couldn’t it be: I love you, but I hate your guts? We are not, after all, our guts–surely we are distinguishable from our guts. I certainly wish to be distinguishable from mine.
Still, I’m sure there are verses in the bible to back up hating sins, hating things, not people, etc. I guess I’m not very good at it. I’m not to be trusted with it, yet, perhaps. Maybe others are more trustworthy. It wouldn’t be the first time someone else was ahead of me in the line!
Jesus, of course, calls us to hate. But oddly, he doesn’t call us to hate sin. He calls us to hate our fathers and our mothers. He didn’t hear the thing about loving our fathers and mothers but hating their sin. Obviously, I’m being provocative for a purpose. I’d like to provoke a re-examination of “love the sinner, hat the sin.” In case you hadn’t noticed, this is not a dissertation–more like one half of a dialectic. A thinking out loud post. One might say a venting out loud post.
Here’s what makes me suspicious of “love the sinner, hate the sin”: the truth of Jesus doesn’t come to us in simple little sticky phrases that make dilemmas easy. The truth of Jesus often plunges us into dilemmas. Like “judge not, lest ye be judged” to pick one of his sticky phrases. Sticky enough to get caught in our throat on the way down.
The truth of Jesus is often a truth from which we recoil when we hear it. As it opens up regions of the human heart never before laid bare.
So, “love the sinner, hate the sin?” How about, “love the sinner, period.” Dear Lord Jesus, show us the way. You’ve had plenty of practice.
Post Script for Readers: This post introduces a new blog category called Thinking Out Loud. We all need space to think out loud, including pastors. Biblical truth is not plain and simple, obvious to everyone truth. It is personal truth which means it needs a full on engagement of mind, heart, soul strength. These aren’t issues that we can just bat around on a blog; we need to pray them through. Much of the stuff I post–at least the ongoing themes–are things I’m thinking through and praying through and the blog format is invaluable to me because it allows me to hear what others in the wider faith community (and beyond) think in response to my thoughts. We’re meant to affect each other, because truth is a communal, not an individual treasure. No one of has it right.
Tags: adultery, etc., fornication, hate, judge, judge not, love, sin, sinner
June 10th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Great post! Two follow-up questions:
Is it a sin to hate the sinner?
Is it a sin not to hate the sin — i.e., to refrain from passing judgment?
To the second question, I think not, at least not generally.
On the other hand, I think we should recoil from wrongs and injustices committed against people, and to mourn the tragic consequences of sins (like drug abuse) that are so clearly personally destructive.
I think that mankind goes very wrong when he allows anything but the clearly observable tragic consequences of certain sins to provoke a “hatred” of those sins.
For example, much hatred of sin is provoked by anger that the sin, in some way, constitutes defiance to some authority (including divine authority).
Much hatred of sin is also provoked by our selfish instincts (e.g., illegal aliens are “freeloading” on the social services I have to pay for).
I’m thinking out loud here too…
June 10th, 2009 at 11:16 am
This first time I heard this little sticky phrase my soul was repelled. I think it was because I realized I wouldn’t be very good at separating the two as well. So twenty some years ago I shortened this phrase to just “love the sinner”. To my shame I haven’t done it well enough.
I also found that those in the gay community were VERY familiar with this sticky phrase. They heard it from their moms and dads, uncles and aunts, pastors and deacons. This made me even more wary of this phrase. Because when they heard this saying, they couldn’t easily remove what they were doing from who they were. So what they heard was “I hate you”. Not very effective communication tool.
I’ve spent the last 20 years ministering to those in the gay community. I love them. Do I think homosexuality is God’s will for our lives? No. But I understand the complexities of our sexuality and identity.
I am a weak man and it’s just too easy to hate. I’m actually quite good at it. I’m actually horribly convicted by this blog post about behavior in me over the past week. So I won’t be picking this sticky phrase up again.
Thanks Ken!
June 10th, 2009 at 11:38 am
excellent post. i have to say i agree with you 99%, which i didn’t expect to be saying. not many people can actually “love the sinner,” period. i think jesus did… i see a glimpse of it here and there from others. i think i do it with my teenagers, when i truly “hate” self-destructive behavior, but love those kids with all my heart. i see it in James 5:19-20: “My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring them back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the way of error will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”
June 10th, 2009 at 11:39 am
“Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Jesus spoke this to his disciples. I’m sure there is some interpretation that says this authority was exclusive to the twelve. But, we can certainly see the heart of Jesus is one of forgiveness of sins. He didn’t say go hate the sin and love the sinner, he said to forgive sins. But, he takes particular issue with those things that CAUSE others to sin. I don’t think Jesus hated sin, but he may have hated the causes of sin.
“The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that CAUSES sin and all who do evil…Woe to the world because of the things that CAUSE people to sin!…If your hand or your foot CAUSES you to sin…And if your eye CAUSES you to sin,…And if anyone CAUSES one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,…Things that CAUSE people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.
Any theories on causation? What if we focused our energies on the things that cause sin? What would we look like?
June 10th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
gem, your comment is pure genius-inspiration1 How about “love the sinner, forgive the sin”? THANKS!
June 10th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
All, think about exactly what the sins are that we are to hate. Imagine the human tragedy these sins cause and then think again if it’s even just not to hate them: human trafficking, rape, adultery, theft, greed, murder, deception, etc…
I think if we aim for social justice and Jesus-like holiness, we must HATE sins, especially our own.
June 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
joao is raising the very excellent and obvious counterpoint, but notice that it was framed in sin language on the agraggate (sp?) level. One cannot read the Hebrew prophets and say that God doesn’t hate sin for the reasons Joao sites. But is this the use and intention of “love the sinner, hate the sin”? And does the should the Jesus movement emphasize “love the sinner, hate the sin” or should we be known by a different angle altogether on the whole thing?
June 10th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
“Love the sinner, forgive the sin” is a perfectly calibrated message to give today’s evangelical culture.
But I have a problem with the noun “sinner.” It covers up the made-in-the-image-of-God person with sin, to the point we observe neither the person, nor God’s image, but only his sin.
If there was any *one* theme upon which *all* of Christian theology is built, it is the three-letter word “sin.” Christians build their whole understanding of existence — and even of the universe itself — upon a scaffolding of sin.
It defines us from the moment of conception. And it is the reason we die. It enslaves us, and even after we “crucify” it, we wrestle with it.
Likewise, in Christian theology, sin defines the earliest moments of the Creation narrative and human history. The Fall. The bondage of creation. And ultimately, its fiery end.
Sin also entirely defines Christianity’s explanation of God’s purpose in becoming Incarnate. I have heard many argue that if it wasn’t for sin, Christ died — and even took on human form in the first place — for nothing.
I have also heard it said that no one would ever have any motivation for seeking God if they weren’t aware of their sin.
As if a man’s (1) despair over his own mortality; (2) his existential compulsion to find meaning and purpose in this life; (3) his attempt to make sense of suffering; and (4) his need for a connection with the divine would never drive him to seek after God! No — those are all non-factors. Only sin would drive a man to seek God, or so many tell me.
Sin is also how Christians typically explain the most challenging questions non-Christians ask: like why God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide (because those Caananites — the little infants included — were irredeemably “degenerate”); and why those who fail to confess belief in certain very specific doctrines will suffer eternal conscious torment (because we all deserve hell anyway).
No wonder most on the outside looking are unlikely to recognize the more sublime themes of Christianity — e.g., God making mankind in God’s image; God identifying with human suffering by taking on man’s image.
All of these nobler themes are buried deep under the towering rubble and ruin of a theological obsession with sin.
Think about it.
Now, think about how much — and the very different kind of — emphasis that Jesus put on sin.
The Jesus of the Gospels seemed to emphasize the themes of “love,” “life” and “suffering” a lot more than (although of course not to the exclusion of) “sin.”
June 10th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I forgot to add…
If anyone is troubled by the theological obsession with sin, or with the idea of biblical inerrancy, etc., we all know why…
“because their deeds are evil” (John 3:19-20).
That, ultimately, is how most Christians I know deal with the “tough questions” others throw their way — they delegitimize the question and marginalize the questioner. If you have any questions, or are troubled by any aspect of Christianity, it must be because of your SIN!!!
Talk about “always being prepared to give an answer.” Accusing the questioner of sin is a sure-fire, easy way to give an answer! Works every time, with every question, and with every questioner! And leaves you with a good feeling to boot!
June 10th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Ken, great post and thanks for the comments. I have been forgiven much in my life. Any pure genius is actually pure weakness and brokenness.
On a macro level we call evil for what it is. There is evil in the world. But at the micro level, person to person, do we need to hate the sin? These are terrible sins that Joao mentions. Nothing is more horrific than the child sex trade that is rampant on the earth. My friend is beginning to work with a ministry (Evangelical) that rescues children and then ministers healing to them. I wonder if hating the sins that were committed against them is part of the healing process. I wonder if those that are ministering to these children focus on hating the sins.
Do we grieve, weep, groan, and anguish over the evil committed by people? Yes, but what good does hating the sin do? Is it any easier to forgive others when we hate the sin?
June 10th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
As joao and gem point out, humans do commit great, horrific evils.
In my earlier protest against a theological obsession with sin, I don’t propose that we deny sin (particularly grievous sins against people) or the tragedies that sin creates.
Sin must be grappled with, even disciplined and punished.
But isn’t it possible to construct a new theological scaffolding that puts sin in a lesser place — in a place where it doesn’t diminish a man; where it doesn’t conceal the man’s innate dignity; where it doesn’t overshadow God’s image?
That, my friends, is a theology I long for. You might accuse my ears of “itching” for it; I would respond that my attempts to “gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles” (Matt. 7:16) have been a bloody, fruitless mess.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
My head is spinning. If there is anything I thought Christians could agree on it would have been that we are to hate sin. I don’t hate it enough. Way too comfortable with much of it. But it seems to me the closer we walk with Jesus the more we really do hate sin. And, as a pastor myself, I do get to practice “love the sinner, hate the sin”. Hating life destroying sins people are involved in while very much loving the person involved in them is something practiced quite well by many Christians.
I too, as Ken noted, am sympathetic to many sins. I understand them. Because I struggle with them. But when I’m thinking the clearest; walking the closest to the Lord…I see those things for what they really are, and have moments where I truly hate them, both in myself and others. I fear for us if we dispense with the notion that we at least SHOULD hate sin.
Of course, Eric did his best job to discourage any disagreement. Please note I have not suggested anyone who has posted opinions I disagree with has done so “because their deeds are evil.” It might only be that their brains have fallen out. (that is a joke)
June 10th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
At the risk of.. well…
It that even in the bible? Or is it even implied.
“love the sinner hate the sin.”
I think we made that up because we were uncomfortable.
What then was the purpose of Jesus death on the cross? Wasn’t it Martin Luther that said something like, “Sin boldly and love Christ more boldly still.”
The book says NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
just sayin…
OK, let me have it.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
actually Luther wrote…
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.”
June 10th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Eric,
I certainly agree with you about the need to always remember people’s godly image and never to objectify people based on whatever sin we may see in them.
I don’t see any issue, though, with the accusation that sin is completely impregnated in much or the Christian faith, I think it is rightly so.
I mean it was sin that caused our separation from God in the 1st place. Were it not for sin, there would be no need for Jesus’ work, the prophets, repentance, etc.
We would have maintained the free, intimate and open communion with God Adam and Eve had before the fall.
No pain, no death, nothing of the evil, hardships and injustices we are so familiar with.
The 4 items you mention as driving forces for man to seek God would not exist if we had never lost that connection with God that was there in the beginning.
June 10th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
I love my fellow persons desiring to lead a good life or a life with God. I fell repulsed with the sins they might commit but I still might love them.
But hey ! Wait a minute! There are some sins I can find no basis to love that person or persons commiting them. Rapist /Murderers, Child molesters, gang killings, murderers of the innocent,a killer of innocent children. I am talking some serious sinner stuff here. How can any one say to these types of people “I love you sinner but I hate your sin”? There has to be a line some where where love to that sinner is not justified for such crimes.
When I hear of these types of crimes to humanity I wished I could be the judge that passes the sentence on them and it would not be mercifull.
Ok I never said I was a perfect Christian. I just have strong views as far a justice is concerned. I understand that God will deal with them on judgement day but it seems that is not soon enough.
June 11th, 2009 at 1:43 am
I’m a little late getting in on this discussion, but I wanted to say amen to Gem’s first post about looking at the causes of sin. That’s been key in how I minister to people for holistic healing. You can repent of the sin and work on not continuing in its path, but real healing takes place when you identify and deal with the roots causing the sin.
And to Gem’s second post: yes, I think it’s important to hate injustices committed against people and to understand that God despises injustice too. I would say it’s very important in traumatic healing: to have revelation that God still loves the people who committed the injustices, but hates the injustice itself.
To that end, I found myself whole-heartedly agreeing with Ken’s post, but then, how do you separate hating injustice and hating “the sin”. Are sin and injustice the same, or is injustice the product of sin? For instance, I was ministering to a Chinese house church leader yesterday whose parents oftentimes didn’t feed her as a child – they didn’t see to her basic needs. I think it’s good to know that God hates that it happened to her, but he still loves her parents. Isn’t that hating the sin but loving the sinner? Or is it hating the fruit of the sin and loving the sinner?
Just some thoughts.
June 11th, 2009 at 3:48 am
God not only hates sin, He also hates sinners. That is a sobering fact. God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). Some say that God only hates the sin but loves the sinner. The above scriptures speak contrary to that. God will be throwing the sinner into hell, not the sin. You cannot punish sin.
It is also true that God is love (1 John 4:8). But if God is love, then God must also hate. I love the Jews, therefore I must hate the holocaust. I love babies, therefore I must hate abortion. God is righteous, therefore He must hate that which is unrighteous.
Therefore, as sacred scripture says, God hates the sinner.
June 11th, 2009 at 8:04 am
So there is plenty of evidence in Scripture to take whatever position you like? So what good is Scripture if it cannot guide us on this most basic of Christian questions? This is what happens when all of Scripture is taken to be automatic writing–God dictating his words to people. And this is what happens when Jesus’s words are not elevated above all other words in Scripture as guidance for us.
June 11th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Maybe there are some fundamental questions in our faith that only the Holy Spirit is meant to answer, and maybe the answer isn’t the same for all sin, all sinners, all situations, and all time. Maybe to be faithful, we should not be taking “positions” on any of this. Maybe we should be actively and continually asking the Holy Spirit to enter our hearts and provide us its help, moment to moment.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Pastors Brian & Mike,
From age 5 on, I have spent my life grappling with the theological obsession with sin & hell & the teaching that salvation subsists in a doctrinally-correct belief system.
That obsession — and the devastating consequences those beliefs imply for the world, the meaning and purpose of life, and the dignity of man — left me depressed and melancholy for most of my life.
I recently adopted a child — our only child — who is 5 years old. Thus, my fervent interest in these topics at this time.
Do I teach him the same theology I was raised with? A theology of a wrathful God who hates sinners and will send anyone who doesn’t affirm a specific doctrinal creed to hell?
Man remakes himself in the image of the God he imagines.
From this point forward, I will RISK believing in a God that is not as terrible as a Scripture-is-inerrant reading implies Him to be.
I do not intend to rob the remaining est. 30-40 years of my life staying enslaved to a depressing sin-obsessed theology; nor will I enslave my son with it.
I will take the risk that God is NOT a God who smote anyone who reflexively touched the ark of the covenant; is NOT a God who commanded the Israelites to slaughter men, women, and children; is NOT a God who condemned the vast majority of the millions of Jews who perished in the Holocaust to an unimaginably worse Holocaust in Hell.
I will put my hope in an a completely characterization of God — a God to whom I can not only reach out and touch, but also(metaphorically) eat and drink, and in that find rivers of life.
Go ahead, count me and every one else who doesn’t found their faith entirely in the belief that an ancient group of texts is inerrant among the damned. I’d rather be counted with all of them than be identified with those who cling to such a terrible view of God.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Pastor Mike, then God hates you…
June 11th, 2009 at 10:40 am
pastor mike, i notice that you sited the old testament exclusively in proving that god hates sinners. is that perhaps because the message of jesus is that god loves sinners? i suppose the father of the prodigal son was hating him the whole time? no, god hates and abhors sin. jesus hates sin so much that he says you should cut off your hand and gouge out your eye before you commit it. it’s better to be drowned than to cause a little one to sin. but jesus LOVES sinners.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:48 am
i think a key question is “whose sin do we hate most? others’ or our own?” i see a lot of christians who are very good at identifying and hating the sins of others. and frankly i don’t see them loving very much. frankly the reality is just “hate the sin, hate the sinner, love the sense of superiority.” (note: i still think we need to hate sin, the way jesus did.)
June 11th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Mike, you’re point is well taken. However, Romans 5 says “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” He does love sinners. And yet, the O.T. verses you quote say the opposite. Any thoughts?
June 11th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Pastor Mike, I don’t think God hates you, but if I follow your logic, what is the end result?
As we read scriptures that say God hates, I choose to leave that in the domain of God’s authority. God is perfect. God is without sin. When God hates, he certainly doesn’t hate like we hate. Or do we actually think we can hate like God?
June 11th, 2009 at 11:28 am
I find it interesting that Christians struggle with sin, but other people are sinners. As we struggle with sin, it is other people that fall under “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” We seem to have the lines so clearly defined that we can turn on the hatred.
I have never found it true that as I sense myself in the presence of Jesus, I hate sin more. I have never found that when I perceive myself walking closer to Jesus, I hate sin more. It is loving relief to be found in his presence with no awareness of sin. That is pure bliss… That is grace… That is mercy…
June 11th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Pastor Mike, is there any hope for us if God hates all of us?
June 11th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
As someone who has struggled with addictions a plenty, I can testify to the utter uselessness of hating a sin in order to overcome it. I tried to hate the sins in myself for over 25 years with little success in being changed.
The power of these negative forces in my life only started to diminish when I stopped hating them and started to love myself, including all my sins, as I believe God does. I began to empathize with myself and began to forgive myself for all I had done and continue to do. I started focusing on the things I wanted to be and do, and not focusing on the ways in which I didn’t measure up.
I’ve never seen the power of God manifest itself through hate. Only through soft, gentle forgiveness. Rallying against sin, committing to never sin again, striving to be pure…all of these concepts sound great but unfortunately miss the heart of God and completely bypass how he heals us.
June 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
It is me again.
True in the Old Testament God hated sinners and ones who failed to follow His Laws. It is noted in several passages what he would do if they refused to come back into the fold.
In the New Testament God sacrifices His own son to forgive the sins of mankind.( I can only wonder if the sins commited back then were as horrendous as they are today).
Through Jesus so shall you be saved. The Lord is actually warning mankind in the New Testament and in Revalations what will happen if you do not repent. To me that says God does love his creation even if they sin against Him and He is giving them ample time before He, through Jesus condems the ones that fail to repent to eternal damnation.
That as I understand it is loving you even if you are a sinner but you must turn away from sin and stop repeating the sins otherwise you will be judged.
June 11th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Eric C (comment 21),
I don’t count you among the damned.
You have a significant problem though. The same book that reveals the Jesus you follow also includes many things you evidently reject. Based upon what do you accept what this book says about Jesus but reject much else it has to say? If you can’t be confident about everything it says, how can you be confident about what it says about Jesus?
This type of forum doesn’t allow for enough in-depth discussion to cover this type of thing…but there are good answers for how the same God who loves us so much He gave His Son for us also did the things you recoil against that you cited from the OT. The answers may not be 100% satisfactory, but they are largely compelling. I would encourage you research the “why” behind those OT actions of God.
Finally, again not enough room to fully get into this…but regarding Pastor Mike’s comments…I understand what he is saying, but count me firmly in the “God loves sinners” camp. For which I’m quite grateful. But until we respond to that love and accept God’s gift of salvation, we face an eternity apart from God. God is both perfect love and perfectly just.
June 12th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Ken, great post.
I have never questioned the statement “Love the sinner, hate the sin”. But you are right. It’s supposed to be “Love the sinner. Period.” Or maybe “Love the sinner, hate Satan”.
It’s not that I often that I am angry with Satan but sometimes …
- when I hear about someone’s death because it shows Satan’s power so drastically
- when I hear about injustice like kids being sold into prostitution
- when I hear about people lured into cults
Does it make sense to hate Satan? I don’t know. Maybe. But I do long for Jesus in these situations. For His healing, His power, His justice, His Kingdom.
When you see Satan as the originator of the sin, the sinner is more a victim than the problem. This results more in “love the sinner, have compassion with him”. Maybe we are rather supposed to share God’s sadness when we are confronted with sin?
Does this approach make a difference? Probably not often because the sinner often does not want to let go of his sin, he does not want to talk about his sin and he would not be thrilled either if you would tell him that he is a victim of his own sin. But sharing love and compassion is worth a try.
June 12th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Dave (post #29), Compelling testimony to the fact that when what sounds good in theory doesn’t work out in practice, a re-examination of the theory is called for.
June 12th, 2009 at 8:17 am
The greatest Christian heresy is to believe that the opposite of sin is virtue. No. The opposite of sin is grace. Kierkegaard
June 12th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Metler, “Grace! It’s the name for a girl. It’s also a thought that can change the world.” (Bono) YES! Hate has no power to defeat sin. Though it is just, (and this is perhaps why we see it presented in a positive light in portions of Scripture) it is inadequate. Something beyond justice is required, and the followers of Jesus must learn what that is and practice it.
June 12th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Pastor Brian,
As someone who affirmed inerrancy for years for the very reason you raise, this is a discussion I would LOVE to have. But we need a forum for it.
I have 100 thoughts on this issue.
Just because I don’t believe everything I read doesn’t mean I cannot believe in, or have no basis for believing in, anything.
There are, after all, numerous extra-textual guides (some affirmed in Scripture itself) to *discerning* truth:
1a) Does it provide meaning & purpose or lead to despair? (This, incidentally, how presuppositionalists such as Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til critique all non-Christian beliefs; so why not universalize this method of critique?)
1b) Is it in accord with natural and moral revelation? (See Rom 1, 2, and 10)
1c) Does it harmonize with one’s deepest intuitions about life? (borrowed from Greg Boyd – http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html). See also Acts 17:26-27.
2) How about this as criterion of truth: “by their fruits you shall know them.” See John 15:8; 15:16; Gal. 5:22-23; Matt 7:15-21; Matt 21:43.
3) Can’t the Holy Spirit be SUFFICIENT to “guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) or is He chained to a text?
Also, SO WHAT?
4) Is God more interested in our certainty of doctrine, or in our seeking? Ultimately, what is saving faith? How about earnestly seeking coupled with the hope/belief that the search will be rewarded (Heb. 11:6)? Isn’t that enough? Will that not be credited by God as faith?
5) When it says “You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free” (John 8:32), is Jesus talking about a set of doctrinal propositions, or Himself (John 14:6)?
6) The Catholics argued that if you didn’t let the Pope & Bishops define the truth, then everyone would go their own way. They were right. Despite Protestantism’s “Sola Scriptura” creed, Protestantism splintered into a 1000 creeds. BUT SO WHAT? IS THAT SO BAD?
And finally:
7) IMO, the biggest thing that gets tossed over the precipice when one rejects inerrancy is a judgmental, critical spirit. Stripped of an inerrant text, Christians lose their ability to play doctrinal police cop. Their focus is shifted from an outwardly critical one to an inwardly critical one, and they are left to consider only the fruit they produce.
June 13th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Ken you said, “Something beyond justice is required, and the followers of Jesus must learn what that is and practice it.”
“It” is called mercy.
Hate is not mentioned so much in scripture.
June 15th, 2009 at 7:13 am
“And this is what happens when Jesus’s words are not elevated above all other words in Scripture as guidance for us.”
Why should Jesus words be elevated?
He didn’t say they should be.
Nor did any of the people who GAVE you Jesus words.
And if you decide to elevate his words for no legitimate reason anyway, you still have to deal w/the fact that he himself said the Word of God was flawless at a time when the ONLY ‘Word of God’ out there was the OLD Testament which was CLEARLY what he was referring to.
As for the guy who decided he gets to pick and chose what scriptures are from God, all I can say is – Good Luck WID DAT! haha Anything you ‘discern’ I can discern better, pal. That’s where that ABSURD reasoning leads us….quickly!
Finally, the gay community (WITHOUT justifiable cause) HATES CHRISTIANS WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS. That is the PRIMARY reason why the saying “Love the Sinner/Hate the Sin” has become anathema in liberal circles (and thus Ken’s circles! lol) It’s because gays KNOW it’s basically about them.
It’s interesting however that the same liberals who IMMEDIATELY cringe when they hear it (try uttering that statement amongst a bunch of gay activists) held the PRECISE position (or at least pretended to) back during the Iraq War. (Liberal Memo…You know the Iraq War is over, right? Sure there’s still 140,000 or so soldiers there in VERY dangerous territory, but Barack’s the Prez now and the Iraq War is not popular so we don’t want to sully his reputation w/it. The proper way to refer it these days is BUSH’s Iraq War…end of Liberal Memo)
Where was I? Oh yeah the liberal position on the war!
Love the Sinner (soldier)
Hate the Sin (Iraq war)
Liberals, of course, don’t really love the sinner. But even if we grant them that, their position here is EXACTLY the same as the Christians on gays.
How come they don’t cringe when it’s being applied in this area?
Hmmmm…
BD
June 15th, 2009 at 7:17 am
“The biggest thing that gets tossed over the precipice when one rejects inerrancy is a judgmental, critical spirit.”
haha
Too Funny.
This guy is actually arguing that DECLARING the scripture unreliable leads to LESS a less judgmental critical spirit!
Someone ought to tell Carrie Prejean that.
BD
Or the people in Stalin’s Russia.
Pol Pot’s Cambodia
Hitler’s Germany
and on and on and on…
PS Can’t wait for someone to BLAME scriture for those events….
June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
BD,
How do you characterize the whole gay community with one sweeping stroke: “the gay community (WITHOUT justifiable cause) HATES CHRISTIANS WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS”?
In my life, I have experienced great kindness from gays and lesbians toward me who surely suspected where I (then) stood on homosexuality.
Those friendships have been, quite frankly, very convicting for me. Their kindness, particularly when contrasted with the rude hatred of their judgmentors, has transformed my thinking on the topic.
Yes, some gays and lesbians are resentful toward Christians. But they have plenty of justification. Those most identified with Christianity have long supported legislation that marginalizes them as people and criminalizes their behavior.
Some Christian “theonomists” even advocate instituting the death penalty for homosexual conduct. According to the Wikipedia article on “Theonomy”…
Various theonomic authors have stated such goals as “the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics”,[7] exclusion of non-Christians from voting and citizenship,[8] and the application of Biblical law by the state.[9] Under such a system of Biblical law, homosexual acts,[10] adultery, witchcraft, and blasphemy[11] would be punishable by death. Propagation of idolatry or “false religions” would be illegal[12] and could also be punished by the death penalty.
I can understand why a homosexual might resent arguments from people who say that they are sinful, evil, and worthless and ought to at least be imprisoned (through prosecution of existing anti-sodomy laws), if not put to death, for homosexual conduct.
Although I’m not a homosexual, I resent those arguments too.
But I understand where these arguments come from. The central belief for anti-homosexual legislation is not a living God or Jesus Christ but that the Bible is inerrant or at least our infallible guide.
The Bible says that the law of God is perfect, and holy, and just. The Bible says we should love the law and meditate on it day and night. Under God’s “perfect law,” homosexuals were to be put to death. Ergo, our laws should also criminalize homosexuality.
I know that not all evangelicals go as far as the put-them-to-death theonomists. But the theonomists at least have this to their credit. They REALLY REALLY BELIEVE — and don’t just say that they believe — that the Bible is inerrant and infallible.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
With respect to your critique on “picking and choosing” and “Anything you ‘discern’ I can discern better, pal” …
Good for you. Go on discerning for yourself. I agree that w/o inerrancy, I can’t categorically tell you should and should not believe.
But that’s not my goal. I have no interest in getting you or anyone else to agree to a system of doctrine or theology.
I would ask the athiest, the theonomist, and everyone in between the same 3 questions:
(1) do you affirm or at least try to affirm the innate and equal dignity, value, and worth of every person?
(2) if so, why? (let’s have a conversation about it!); and
(3) if not, why shouldn’t others fear you?
That’s about it.
Why not start theological conversations with both believers and unbelievers with these three questions? Does a Christian really need to establish Scriptural infallibility first, before he/she can have that conversation?
June 16th, 2009 at 2:14 am
How do you characterize the whole gay community with one sweeping stroke:
OK…you got me. You cannot characterize ANY community that way.
However, I would submit for your perusal the response from SIGNIFICANT portions of the Gay Community (with nary a countervailing view) to
Carrie Prejean
The Mormon Church
etc
The reality is that the church is the last and most formidable voice to stand in opposition to the notion that gay sex = straight sex in terms of it’s moral acceptability.
So, it stands to reason that people trying to make gay sex every bit as normative would be hostile.
And they are…
BD
PS Your thenomist argument is a LAUGHABLE red herring – kind of like saying OJ is representative of black people. Using a WIKIPEDIA cite made it beyond laughable. haha
June 16th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Ken, you are right to point out that Christians tend to be better at the hatred of the sin–all too often lapping into hatred of the sinner–than at loving fallen people. But it’s still important to keep “Judge not, lest you be judged” in context with the judgment and discernment that we ARE expected to exhibit in the Body of Christ. There’s a difference between “discernment” and “condemnation,” and we are wrong to lump all forms of judgment into one camp or the other. . .we are, in fact, commanded to do the one and avoid the other.
My Mom has just written a good word study on judgment that I encourage you and your readers to check out for more detail on this.
October 6th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Eric’s commenets reflect the modern liberal society which is bringing his son into, which he will haveto answer to God.
Does anyone know that that phase “Love the sinner, hate the sin” was by St. Augistine , and it is related to disciplining nuns. Read it. It is also taken out of context.
IT IS HARD FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT NO ONE ON THIS SITE HAS THIS INFORMATION.