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	<title>Comments on: showing the world how wrong it is</title>
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	<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/</link>
	<description>one step closer</description>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2532</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2532</guid>
		<description>Eric,  You got it! I&#039;ll put it in the post cue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,  You got it! I&#8217;ll put it in the post cue.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric C</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2524</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2524</guid>
		<description>Ken,

I wonder if you would mind commenting, or pointing me to where you have commented, on the Cornelius-Van-Til/Francis Schaeffer way many of us have been brought up to see the world and its clash of worldviews.

Is it proper to see the philosophical, religious, and ideological marketplace as a clash between:

a) the &quot;Christian worldview&quot; -- which is arguably based on total submission to God (manifested through total submission to a literal inerrantist view of the Biblical text) versus a group of &quot;anti-Christian worldviews&quot; that are all rooted in man&#039;s ill-fated quest for autonomy from God?

and

b) a worldview that arguably puts &quot;God at the center of all things&quot; (but is really just one view of God) versus a host of &quot;humanistic&quot; worldviews that put &quot;man at the center of all things.&quot;

I think that these concepts -- and these concepts are powerful ways of looking at things -- are very much behind the typical Evangelical urge to show the world how wrong it is.

But IMO, this way of looking at the world frequently leads Evangelicals to falsely and unfairly caricaturize the world about them. 

IMO, extreme sensitivity to anything one might perceive as &quot;humanism,&quot; i.e., putting &quot;man at the center&quot; has led many (not all) to so demote man that he is essentially stripped of made-in-the-image-of-God dignity, to the point where the Second Commandment (love neighbor) has been distorted into the antithesis of the First (love God).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken,</p>
<p>I wonder if you would mind commenting, or pointing me to where you have commented, on the Cornelius-Van-Til/Francis Schaeffer way many of us have been brought up to see the world and its clash of worldviews.</p>
<p>Is it proper to see the philosophical, religious, and ideological marketplace as a clash between:</p>
<p>a) the &#8220;Christian worldview&#8221; &#8212; which is arguably based on total submission to God (manifested through total submission to a literal inerrantist view of the Biblical text) versus a group of &#8220;anti-Christian worldviews&#8221; that are all rooted in man&#8217;s ill-fated quest for autonomy from God?</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>b) a worldview that arguably puts &#8220;God at the center of all things&#8221; (but is really just one view of God) versus a host of &#8220;humanistic&#8221; worldviews that put &#8220;man at the center of all things.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that these concepts &#8212; and these concepts are powerful ways of looking at things &#8212; are very much behind the typical Evangelical urge to show the world how wrong it is.</p>
<p>But IMO, this way of looking at the world frequently leads Evangelicals to falsely and unfairly caricaturize the world about them. </p>
<p>IMO, extreme sensitivity to anything one might perceive as &#8220;humanism,&#8221; i.e., putting &#8220;man at the center&#8221; has led many (not all) to so demote man that he is essentially stripped of made-in-the-image-of-God dignity, to the point where the Second Commandment (love neighbor) has been distorted into the antithesis of the First (love God).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2509</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 01:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2509</guid>
		<description>Ken, when you get the time, don&#039;t forget to answer the questions which have been posed to you on these pages over the last few weeks...

And when you posit a suspicion about the heart of Jesus, don&#039;t forget to back up what you are saying with evidence from the scriptures, evidence that causes you to suspect that the Pharisees &quot;were, of the various religious parties of the day, the closet to his heart.&quot;

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, when you get the time, don&#8217;t forget to answer the questions which have been posed to you on these pages over the last few weeks&#8230;</p>
<p>And when you posit a suspicion about the heart of Jesus, don&#8217;t forget to back up what you are saying with evidence from the scriptures, evidence that causes you to suspect that the Pharisees &#8220;were, of the various religious parties of the day, the closet to his heart.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Notbell</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2507</link>
		<dc:creator>Notbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 21:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2507</guid>
		<description>I wonder why we are so disputatious.  Down through the millenia.  God-lovers.  Christian.  Jewish.  Muslim.  Buddhist.  Hindu.  Agnostic.  Atheist.  Communist.  Republican.  Democrat.  Libertarian.  Doesn&#039;t matter.  We&#039;re all obnoxious.  All taken up with our ideas.  Our loves.  All of us seeking....  Seeking what?  Justification?  Righteousness?  Is that all?  What a silly idea!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why we are so disputatious.  Down through the millenia.  God-lovers.  Christian.  Jewish.  Muslim.  Buddhist.  Hindu.  Agnostic.  Atheist.  Communist.  Republican.  Democrat.  Libertarian.  Doesn&#8217;t matter.  We&#8217;re all obnoxious.  All taken up with our ideas.  Our loves.  All of us seeking&#8230;.  Seeking what?  Justification?  Righteousness?  Is that all?  What a silly idea!</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2503</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 15:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2503</guid>
		<description>gem, well said! The Pharisees often get a bad rap; Jesus was harshest in his criticism of them because, I suspect, they were, of the various religious parties of the day, the closet to his heart.  Like C.S. Lewis says, the sharpest disagreements are often between groups that hold the most in common.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gem, well said! The Pharisees often get a bad rap; Jesus was harshest in his criticism of them because, I suspect, they were, of the various religious parties of the day, the closet to his heart.  Like C.S. Lewis says, the sharpest disagreements are often between groups that hold the most in common.</p>
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		<title>By: gem</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2500</link>
		<dc:creator>gem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 12:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2500</guid>
		<description>I see the Pharisee of Pharisees drenched in love and driven by compassion saying, “My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters.  I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.”  Here is Paul, willing to suffer for others if it would save them.  He is compelled by the love of Jesus and experiencing bitter sorrow and unending grief for those who are trying to kill him.  Willing to be cursed and die for the religious people who hate him…sounds like Jesus to me.  I guess if we have this heart and consider ourselves the least of all Christians, we would begin to understand his love for everyone both in and outside of religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see the Pharisee of Pharisees drenched in love and driven by compassion saying, “My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters.  I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.”  Here is Paul, willing to suffer for others if it would save them.  He is compelled by the love of Jesus and experiencing bitter sorrow and unending grief for those who are trying to kill him.  Willing to be cursed and die for the religious people who hate him…sounds like Jesus to me.  I guess if we have this heart and consider ourselves the least of all Christians, we would begin to understand his love for everyone both in and outside of religion.</p>
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		<title>By: gem</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2492</link>
		<dc:creator>gem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 18:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2492</guid>
		<description>Eric, I was raised fundamentalist Baptist.  Jesus somehow had mercy on me, and I have been on the charismatic magical mystery tour for the last 20 years.  While it what easy for me to be critical of my religious roots, I found that judging the past and people with the knowledge I had today, produced nothing good in me.  Over the years I have found judgmental people in many different religious settings, &quot;spirit filled&quot;, liberal, and conservative.  I have never been comfortable equating those that profess faith in Christ with the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus&#039; day.   

I am amazed at those that think they have a corner on the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the truth.  I am even more amazed when those that claim special awareness of his Spirit and love, are so quick to critique there fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  If we are truly calling others Pharisees, then as Jesus said, we are also saying, &quot;You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father&#039;s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.&quot;

Ken, thanks for your gentle response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I was raised fundamentalist Baptist.  Jesus somehow had mercy on me, and I have been on the charismatic magical mystery tour for the last 20 years.  While it what easy for me to be critical of my religious roots, I found that judging the past and people with the knowledge I had today, produced nothing good in me.  Over the years I have found judgmental people in many different religious settings, &#8220;spirit filled&#8221;, liberal, and conservative.  I have never been comfortable equating those that profess faith in Christ with the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus&#8217; day.   </p>
<p>I am amazed at those that think they have a corner on the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the truth.  I am even more amazed when those that claim special awareness of his Spirit and love, are so quick to critique there fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  If we are truly calling others Pharisees, then as Jesus said, we are also saying, &#8220;You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father&#8217;s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ken, thanks for your gentle response.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2489</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 13:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2489</guid>
		<description>gem, thanks for your couple of recent comments. It helps me to understand how this blog is landing on you. I&#039;m pondering a couple of blog posts in response: one on my sense of what American evangelicals are doing well [what I love about us] and a follow up on the harm that I sense is being done by our movement as a whole.  My assumption is that about 20% of what I say is wrong; I just don&#039;t know what 20%.  I&#039;m also more of an extravert in my processing and I use this blog to see what I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gem, thanks for your couple of recent comments. It helps me to understand how this blog is landing on you. I&#8217;m pondering a couple of blog posts in response: one on my sense of what American evangelicals are doing well [what I love about us] and a follow up on the harm that I sense is being done by our movement as a whole.  My assumption is that about 20% of what I say is wrong; I just don&#8217;t know what 20%.  I&#8217;m also more of an extravert in my processing and I use this blog to see what I think.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2488</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 13:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2488</guid>
		<description>Mark, yes, that could be interpreted in ways I didn&#039;t intend.  All human beings participate in different ways in truth, have truth, express truth, are true [and we&#039;re all a frustrating admixture of true and not true]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, yes, that could be interpreted in ways I didn&#8217;t intend.  All human beings participate in different ways in truth, have truth, express truth, are true [and we're all a frustrating admixture of true and not true]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric C</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/25/showing-the-world-how-wrong-it-is/comment-page-1/#comment-2486</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 13:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=543#comment-2486</guid>
		<description>Gem,

I don&#039;t think your critique is fair.  At least not for me.  I came from a fairly fundamentalist background.  Reading &quot;Extreme Righteousness&quot; a few years ago really got me thinking.

That I and the tribe I had spent so much time defending were so very much like the Pharisees.

It was a self-critical turning point.

I bet many of those reading and contributing to Ken&#039;s threads have similar experiences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gem,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think your critique is fair.  At least not for me.  I came from a fairly fundamentalist background.  Reading &#8220;Extreme Righteousness&#8221; a few years ago really got me thinking.</p>
<p>That I and the tribe I had spent so much time defending were so very much like the Pharisees.</p>
<p>It was a self-critical turning point.</p>
<p>I bet many of those reading and contributing to Ken&#8217;s threads have similar experiences.</p>
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