Comments on: jesus, paul, john wimber, and “the apostles’ teaching” http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/ one step closer Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:41:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Brian http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2361 Brian Thu, 21 May 2009 23:59:57 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2361 Elizabeth, Were you able to confirm Ken's post did have the content I referenced? Elizabeth,

Were you able to confirm Ken’s post did have the content I referenced?

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2340 ken Sun, 17 May 2009 20:44:49 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2340 Humphreys, "But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good...Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood!" I think I'll spin off a follow up post to respond to this... Humphreys, “But I’m just a soul whose intentions are good…Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood!” I think I’ll spin off a follow up post to respond to this…

]]> By: Humphreys http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2339 Humphreys Sun, 17 May 2009 19:07:58 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2339 ken, i agree, but you weren't just saying what it meant for the original hearers. you were applying it to a modern question of scriptural authority. when applying a text to a completely different setting it seems like you need to go beyond just what the original hearers understood. they didn't have the writings of Paul, Peter and John. but we do. it seems silly to not include the canonical writings of these apostles as being "the teaching of the apostles" in our present setting. ken, i agree, but you weren’t just saying what it meant for the original hearers. you were applying it to a modern question of scriptural authority. when applying a text to a completely different setting it seems like you need to go beyond just what the original hearers understood. they didn’t have the writings of Paul, Peter and John. but we do. it seems silly to not include the canonical writings of these apostles as being “the teaching of the apostles” in our present setting.

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2337 ken Sat, 16 May 2009 01:31:43 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2337 gem, I don't think there's reason to fear; Jesus promised us that the Spirit would be given who would lead us into all the truth. God exists; Jesus is alive and so he is perfectly capable of insuring that we get what we need in the truth department. For a good resource on interpreting the Bible, you might try How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth by Stuart and Fee (Gordon Fee) If God would have wanted us to depend on a crystal clear Bible whose meaning was obvious in all the particulars to all people in all times, he would have inspired a different kind of book than the bible. The Bible points us to a living God who loves, saves, leads and guides us. gem, I don’t think there’s reason to fear; Jesus promised us that the Spirit would be given who would lead us into all the truth. God exists; Jesus is alive and so he is perfectly capable of insuring that we get what we need in the truth department. For a good resource on interpreting the Bible, you might try
How to Read the Bible for All It’s Worth by Stuart and Fee (Gordon Fee) If God would have wanted us to depend on a crystal clear Bible whose meaning was obvious in all the particulars to all people in all times, he would have inspired a different kind of book than the bible. The Bible points us to a living God who loves, saves, leads and guides us.

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2336 ken Sat, 16 May 2009 01:26:55 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2336 Humphreys, Generally speaking a text means what it would have meant to the origional audience-hearers; hence soon after the first Pentecost "the apostles teaching" would have referred to the teachings of the origional twelve, their remembrances of the life and words and deeds of Jesus, later compiled in the four gospels....it's not to deny that Paul was an apostle, but as Acts makes clear his conversion came later Humphreys, Generally speaking a text means what it would have meant to the origional audience-hearers; hence soon after the first Pentecost “the apostles teaching” would have referred to the teachings of the origional twelve, their remembrances of the life and words and deeds of Jesus, later compiled in the four gospels….it’s not to deny that Paul was an apostle, but as Acts makes clear his conversion came later

]]> By: Notbell http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2335 Notbell Sat, 16 May 2009 00:17:19 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2335 Brian, Well if I gave equal weight to everything in the Bible, I think my brains would fall out of my head. I have enough trouble understanding Jesus well enough to follow what he says. To live a life that is faithful to what he asks. How do I treat the Old Testament? As instructions? No. I treat it as history. And rightly so. A covenant that was current once but is no longer. Paul? Well, he is Paul. Not God. Jesus is God. I pay more attention to God than any other human being, including my brother Paul. The Bible is inspired by God. Is God talking equally through Paul and Jesus? No. He is speaking most directly through Jesus. Paul is commentary on what God has to say through Jesus. How about the Holy Spirit? What attention do I pay to the leading of the Holy Spirit? Every attention. This is Jesus now. This is Jesus for us. This is the action of God in the world today. Among us. Brian, Well if I gave equal weight to everything in the Bible, I think my brains would fall out of my head. I have enough trouble understanding Jesus well enough to follow what he says. To live a life that is faithful to what he asks. How do I treat the Old Testament? As instructions? No. I treat it as history. And rightly so. A covenant that was current once but is no longer. Paul? Well, he is Paul. Not God. Jesus is God. I pay more attention to God than any other human being, including my brother Paul. The Bible is inspired by God. Is God talking equally through Paul and Jesus? No. He is speaking most directly through Jesus. Paul is commentary on what God has to say through Jesus. How about the Holy Spirit? What attention do I pay to the leading of the Holy Spirit? Every attention. This is Jesus now. This is Jesus for us. This is the action of God in the world today. Among us.

]]> By: gem http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2334 gem Fri, 15 May 2009 21:40:00 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2334 "If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off" "for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church" "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission" Do we accept the scriptures above as literal for our day? If not, what other scriptures need to be interpreted based on the time, context, and the people receiving the letters of Paul, or the teachings of Christ? Do I need a theologian to tell me what to believe on these issues? Remember, we can always find a teacher that satisfies our minds. I know what my heart says, but my mind if fearful of the letter. What is right, my mind or my heart? My heart says these and many other passages are not literal for our day. When I look at it any other way, my mind is cluttered by the convoluted logic that I am following a religion of rules that nobody, including myself, actually follows. “If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off”

“for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church”

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission”

Do we accept the scriptures above as literal for our day? If not, what other scriptures need to be interpreted based on the time, context, and the people receiving the letters of Paul, or the teachings of Christ? Do I need a theologian to tell me what to believe on these issues? Remember, we can always find a teacher that satisfies our minds.

I know what my heart says, but my mind if fearful of the letter. What is right, my mind or my heart? My heart says these and many other passages are not literal for our day. When I look at it any other way, my mind is cluttered by the convoluted logic that I am following a religion of rules that nobody, including myself, actually follows.

]]> By: Humphreys http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2333 Humphreys Fri, 15 May 2009 20:58:46 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2333 wouldn't "the apostles' teaching" in our context include the teaching of... the apostles? namely peter, paul, john? including their letters? wouldn’t “the apostles’ teaching” in our context include the teaching of… the apostles? namely peter, paul, john? including their letters?

]]> By: Brian http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2332 Brian Fri, 15 May 2009 14:42:19 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2332 Notbell, I appreciate what you're saying and I understand that practically we do make decisions about the weight we give particular sections of Scripture. Having said that, since I thought we Christians were people who accepted the entire Bible as the Word of God...I thought what Paul wrote was the Word of God, as well as every other biblical author. Isn't that your understanding? It seems to me there is a suggestion being made that there is some dissonance between the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, etc. Rightly understood, that just isn't so. Notbell,

I appreciate what you’re saying and I understand that practically we do make decisions about the weight we give particular sections of Scripture. Having said that, since I thought we Christians were people who accepted the entire Bible as the Word of God…I thought what Paul wrote was the Word of God, as well as every other biblical author. Isn’t that your understanding? It seems to me there is a suggestion being made that there is some dissonance between the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, etc. Rightly understood, that just isn’t so.

]]> By: Brian http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/05/12/jesus-paul-john-wimber-and-the-apostles-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-2331 Brian Fri, 15 May 2009 14:29:28 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=512#comment-2331 Elizabeth, I did read the whole post. Ken wrote that he's told there is a lot of rethinking about Paul, including, "Does he belong there (canon), even?" ' I was not criticizing Ken, but whoever the "they" are Ken refers to. It is just under the heading "Let Paul be Paul by letting Jesus be Jesus" in Ken's post so that you can look at it again and confirm I did read that in the post. Elizabeth,

I did read the whole post. Ken wrote that he’s told there is a lot of rethinking about Paul, including, “Does he belong there (canon), even?” ‘
I was not criticizing Ken, but whoever the “they” are Ken refers to. It is just under the heading “Let Paul be Paul by letting Jesus be Jesus” in Ken’s post so that you can look at it again and confirm I did read that in the post.

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