Comments on: young pastors: rumination, the bane of the praying brain! http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/ one step closer Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:41:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Nickolas http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2317 Nickolas Wed, 13 May 2009 15:37:28 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2317 I realize that I am often accused of "stirring the pot" (and probably for good reason). So just to calm everyone I should admit that I cherish the times of quiet and peace. I mean, if I have to let the peace of God "act as an umpire," I better experience that peace. I also have to admit that you and I love to "debate the Scriptures," and you have proved to be an honored and worthy opponent in those discussions. That being said, although I may differ on terminology, I think we agree on most of it and I loved your post . . . ;o) I realize that I am often accused of “stirring the pot” (and probably for good reason). So just to calm everyone I should admit that I cherish the times of quiet and peace. I mean, if I have to let the peace of God “act as an umpire,” I better experience that peace.

I also have to admit that you and I love to “debate the Scriptures,” and you have proved to be an honored and worthy opponent in those discussions.

That being said, although I may differ on terminology, I think we agree on most of it and I loved your post . . . ;o)

]]> By: Bob http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2312 Bob Wed, 13 May 2009 03:03:04 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2312 For 20 years of my Christian walk I struggled with prayer. It was all one way. I'd throw words — good words, well thought out words, scriptural words — out into the universe and hope they "stuck". I had little to no ability to hear God. Why? Because I couldn't differentiate between my inner chatter and His voice. Since He tells us the "my sheep know my voice" it's possible I wasn't really saved. But that's irrelevant, because now I can hear his voice. What changed? Through your mentoring on prayer I realized that my constant rumination wasn't the norm. That it was possible to "be still." In fact, it was quite enjoyable and peaceful. For the first time in my life I learned how to subdue my inner chatter. This then made it much easier to hear God, who tends to whisper, not shout. Thanks! For 20 years of my Christian walk I struggled with prayer. It was all one way. I’d throw words — good words, well thought out words, scriptural words — out into the universe and hope they “stuck”. I had little to no ability to hear God. Why? Because I couldn’t differentiate between my inner chatter and His voice. Since He tells us the “my sheep know my voice” it’s possible I wasn’t really saved. But that’s irrelevant, because now I can hear his voice. What changed? Through your mentoring on prayer I realized that my constant rumination wasn’t the norm. That it was possible to “be still.” In fact, it was quite enjoyable and peaceful. For the first time in my life I learned how to subdue my inner chatter. This then made it much easier to hear God, who tends to whisper, not shout. Thanks!

]]> By: steph http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2309 steph Tue, 12 May 2009 18:41:12 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2309 from one overthinker to another, thank you so much for posting this. your lovely daughter is always also advocating silence when I moan about not feeling... at peace. she knows me well. I think your post is very well written. I'm so glad you're our Pastor! from one overthinker to another, thank you so much for posting this. your lovely daughter is always also advocating silence when I moan about not feeling… at peace. she knows me well. I think your post is very well written. I’m so glad you’re our Pastor!

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2308 ken Mon, 11 May 2009 15:21:23 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2308 Nick, In response to your comment: "Although I love to sit quietly; to walk through the woods and listen to the sounds around me; to stand on a mountain top and be amazed at God’s creation . . . while it certainly relaxes me and relieves whatever stress I may have had, for me, it’s never increased my faith or devotion." Since the heavens declare the glory of God and creation reveals invisible qualities of the creator, I think it's meant to increase our faith and devotion along withe meditative process you describe with Scripture. Nick, In response to your comment: “Although I love to sit quietly; to walk through the woods and listen to the sounds around me; to stand on a mountain top and be amazed at God’s creation . . . while it certainly relaxes me and relieves whatever stress I may have had, for me, it’s never increased my faith or devotion.” Since the heavens declare the glory of God and creation reveals invisible qualities of the creator, I think it’s meant to increase our faith and devotion along withe meditative process you describe with Scripture.

]]> By: Nickolas http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2307 Nickolas Sun, 10 May 2009 21:29:23 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2307 Part of my thoughts are reinforced in Proverbs 4:20-22: "Dear friend, listen well to my words; tune your ears to my voice. Keep my message in plain view at all times. [Now here's my point:] Concentrate! Learn it by heart! Those who discover these words live, really live; body and soul, they're bursting with health." See what I mean? "Keep it in plain sight . . . concentrate (on it) . . . roll it around your thoughts, meditate and focus all your thoughts on His instruction. The problem doesn't seem to be focusing your thoughts, or "ruminating," perse, it's what you're focusing your attention and energy on. Part of my thoughts are reinforced in Proverbs 4:20-22:

“Dear friend, listen well to my words; tune your ears to my voice. Keep my message in plain view at all times. [Now here's my point:] Concentrate! Learn it by heart! Those who discover these words live, really live; body and soul, they’re bursting with health.”

See what I mean? “Keep it in plain sight . . . concentrate (on it) . . . roll it around your thoughts, meditate and focus all your thoughts on His instruction.

The problem doesn’t seem to be focusing your thoughts, or “ruminating,” perse, it’s what you’re focusing your attention and energy on.

]]> By: Nickolas http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2305 Nickolas Sun, 10 May 2009 05:51:28 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2305 I think my point might have been lost in the many words. Although I love to sit quietly; to walk through the woods and listen to the sounds around me; to stand on a mountain top and be amazed at God's creation . . . while it certainly relaxes me and relieves whatever stress I may have had, for me, it's never increased my faith or devotion. If we were to continually dwell on finances; employment (or lack of it); all the "affairs of life," without reminding ourselves of the promises of our Father to meet those needs, we'd go crazy. For me, it's WHAT I think on. What I seek to focus on is both the logos and the rhema--God's words that are written and those He speaks to my spirit. If that is the ruminating you are referring to, it works for me. If you are referring to continually focusing on the "troubles of life," then I agree wholeheartedly with you! If that was where my thoughts were, I'd probably end up curling up in a fettle position and suck my thumb all day . . . I always argue that Satan only has three weapons to use against us--think of it as TIS: Thoughts, Ideas, and Suggestions. If we can control those, we'll find the peace "which comes from Christ" to "act as umpire continually deciding and settling--with finality--all questions that arise in [y]our minds" (Col 3:15) I think my point might have been lost in the many words. Although I love to sit quietly; to walk through the woods and listen to the sounds around me; to stand on a mountain top and be amazed at God’s creation . . . while it certainly relaxes me and relieves whatever stress I may have had, for me, it’s never increased my faith or devotion.

If we were to continually dwell on finances; employment (or lack of it); all the “affairs of life,” without reminding ourselves of the promises of our Father to meet those needs, we’d go crazy.

For me, it’s WHAT I think on. What I seek to focus on is both the logos and the rhema–God’s words that are written and those He speaks to my spirit. If that is the ruminating you are referring to, it works for me. If you are referring to continually focusing on the “troubles of life,” then I agree wholeheartedly with you! If that was where my thoughts were, I’d probably end up curling up in a fettle position and suck my thumb all day . . .

I always argue that Satan only has three weapons to use against us–think of it as TIS: Thoughts, Ideas, and Suggestions.

If we can control those, we’ll find the peace “which comes from Christ” to “act as umpire continually deciding and settling–with finality–all questions that arise in [y]our minds” (Col 3:15)

]]> By: Joao http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2303 Joao Thu, 07 May 2009 15:09:03 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2303 Ken, I might have mentioned this before, but I see a lot of Brennan Manning in what you have been teaching in the past years. He is my favorite author and I absolutely love his word play, like 'the furious love of God' or 'I am a saint with a great capacity for beer.' or looking at the universe with wonder in the phrase: 'magnificent monotony'. Donn't know if you have read him, but his books 'The Ragamuffin Gospel' and Lion and Lamb' have literally changed my life with respoect to the struggles I mentioned on my 1st post. Like you, he has received a lot of criticism from fellow evangelicals, though I am not sure where to place him, since he used to be a Catholic priest who decided to get married and so became in his own words a 'vagabond evangelist'. Ken, I might have mentioned this before, but I see a lot of Brennan Manning in what you have been teaching in the past years.
He is my favorite author and I absolutely love his word play, like ‘the furious love of God’ or ‘I am a saint with a great capacity for beer.’ or looking at the universe with wonder in the phrase: ‘magnificent monotony’.
Donn’t know if you have read him, but his books ‘The Ragamuffin Gospel’ and Lion and Lamb’ have literally changed my life with respoect to the struggles I mentioned on my 1st post.
Like you, he has received a lot of criticism from fellow evangelicals, though I am not sure where to place him, since he used to be a Catholic priest who decided to get married and so became in his own words a ‘vagabond evangelist’.

]]> By: MJJ http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2302 MJJ Thu, 07 May 2009 11:29:06 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2302 I'm a Jesus follower through and through, but I must say when I came across the Buddhist term 'Monkey Mind' I had an a-ha moment. Most of us are entertained by those cute rambunctious,mischievous creatures at the zoo for their non-stop antics, but as Joao described it wreaks havoc with us when it happens internally. Settling oneself down before the start of the day with the Psalms is the great way to put the monkey mind to rest, and gives one a better chance to let his or her little shine, so to speak. From today's TDH-- psalm 86:11b "...knit my heart to You." I’m a Jesus follower through and through, but I must say when I came across the Buddhist term ‘Monkey Mind’ I had an a-ha moment. Most of us are entertained by those cute rambunctious,mischievous creatures at the zoo for their non-stop antics, but as Joao described it wreaks havoc with us when it happens internally. Settling oneself down before the start of the day with the Psalms is the great way to put the monkey mind to rest, and gives one a better chance to let his or her little shine, so to speak.

From today’s TDH– psalm 86:11b “…knit my heart to You.”

]]> By: Jeff Zapor http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2301 Jeff Zapor Wed, 06 May 2009 16:40:12 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2301 Ken, My only objection is that ruminating doesn't only plague pastors. I was only on staff with Campus Crusade for 5 years, and I have been away now for almost 4 years. Maybe that is where I get it from...maybe not. All I can say is that I've had the thought that I'd like myself a lot better if I didn't ruminate endlessly. Brennan Manning also calls endless self introspection a big waste of time and a barrier to loving your neighbor as yourself. So, I follow the logic of it but quitting isn't easy. For me it is almost like an addiction. I'll give the 60 seconds on the name of Jesus a go. He's the consuming fire afterall. I'm thankful to God for you, Ken. Ken,
My only objection is that ruminating doesn’t only plague pastors. I was only on staff with Campus Crusade for 5 years, and I have been away now for almost 4 years. Maybe that is where I get it from…maybe not. All I can say is that I’ve had the thought that I’d like myself a lot better if I didn’t ruminate endlessly. Brennan Manning also calls endless self introspection a big waste of time and a barrier to loving your neighbor as yourself. So, I follow the logic of it but quitting isn’t easy. For me it is almost like an addiction. I’ll give the 60 seconds on the name of Jesus a go. He’s the consuming fire afterall.
I’m thankful to God for you, Ken.

]]> By: Joao http://kenwilsononline.com/2009/04/30/young-pastors-rumination-the-bane-of-the-praying-brain/comment-page-1/#comment-2298 Joao Tue, 05 May 2009 15:59:27 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=504#comment-2298 Maybe an aside, but I never got this thing about Descartes. He would exist regardless of whether he thinks or not. His thoughts are irrelevant. He could be dead and still exist. Maybe what he means by 'I am' is self awareness, not existance. Could this be a pattern of thinking that is particularly Western? We seem to put a lot of importance on our thinking, what WE think of something, how WE feel, what truth is for ME. What kind of God WE find acceptable. Our feelings have importance, but I was reminded in this sunday's sermon that God is other than us and He is beyond us and the extent to which we know Him is only the extent to which He allows us to know Him. I think back on the discussion Job had with God in the end of the story where after his complaint to God, God's response causes him to just be quiet, to have no response. Maybe an aside, but I never got this thing about Descartes. He would exist regardless of whether he thinks or not. His thoughts are irrelevant. He could be dead and still exist.

Maybe what he means by ‘I am’ is self awareness, not existance.

Could this be a pattern of thinking that is particularly Western?

We seem to put a lot of importance on our thinking, what WE think of something, how WE feel, what truth is for ME. What kind of God WE find acceptable.

Our feelings have importance, but I was reminded in this sunday’s sermon that God is other than us and He is beyond us and the extent to which we know Him is only the extent to which He allows us to know Him.

I think back on the discussion Job had with God in the end of the story where after his complaint to God, God’s response causes him to just be quiet, to have no response.

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