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	<title>Comments on: richard cizik and the boundaries of the reservation revealed</title>
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	<description>one step closer</description>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1407</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1407</guid>
		<description>Brenda, I don&#039;t believe truth is relative. Truth is truth. Of course our take on the truth is affected by many factors that are relative (our cultural lenses that affect our interpretation--for example the fact that societies that had slavery read the Bible as supporting slavery).  I believe Cizik simply said that he thought the state could allow civil unions. I don&#039;t think the state even cares whether people in civil unions are gay or straight. He didn&#039;t say anything about what the church should do. Currently the state allows serial marriages that in many cases amount to ongoing adultery something, that the Bible clearly forbids. But enough on that :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brenda, I don&#8217;t believe truth is relative. Truth is truth. Of course our take on the truth is affected by many factors that are relative (our cultural lenses that affect our interpretation&#8211;for example the fact that societies that had slavery read the Bible as supporting slavery).  I believe Cizik simply said that he thought the state could allow civil unions. I don&#8217;t think the state even cares whether people in civil unions are gay or straight. He didn&#8217;t say anything about what the church should do. Currently the state allows serial marriages that in many cases amount to ongoing adultery something, that the Bible clearly forbids. But enough on that <img src='http://kenwilsononline.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brenda</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1403</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1403</guid>
		<description>What is outside the circle of orthodoxy-if orthodoxy means right belief-are beliefs which are not right. Like the belief that sexual union is not reserved for marriage between a man and a woman. The Bible should be the foundation for what we believe is right and wrong. No? So to believe that sexual unions between two men or two women (or &quot;civil unions&quot;) are okay, like Cizik says, is a wrong belief. Why isn&#039;t abortion okay, or does he think that to? He, and you, don&#039;t say that homosexual sex is wrong. But that&#039;s completely contrary to what the Bible clearly says about it. What I mean by left-wing Christian is those who believe that truth is relative. God&#039;s Word is true for some situations but not for others. Some Scriptures are true and should be followed and others are false and should be ignored. Putting human intellect and reason above God&#039;s Word-so that a smart person with a big vocabulary can decide that God cares more about global warming than about abortion and homosexuality, or that parts of the bible are too old-Fashioned for our modern sensibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is outside the circle of orthodoxy-if orthodoxy means right belief-are beliefs which are not right. Like the belief that sexual union is not reserved for marriage between a man and a woman. The Bible should be the foundation for what we believe is right and wrong. No? So to believe that sexual unions between two men or two women (or &#8220;civil unions&#8221;) are okay, like Cizik says, is a wrong belief. Why isn&#8217;t abortion okay, or does he think that to? He, and you, don&#8217;t say that homosexual sex is wrong. But that&#8217;s completely contrary to what the Bible clearly says about it. What I mean by left-wing Christian is those who believe that truth is relative. God&#8217;s Word is true for some situations but not for others. Some Scriptures are true and should be followed and others are false and should be ignored. Putting human intellect and reason above God&#8217;s Word-so that a smart person with a big vocabulary can decide that God cares more about global warming than about abortion and homosexuality, or that parts of the bible are too old-Fashioned for our modern sensibilities.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1400</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1400</guid>
		<description>Brenda, Gee whiz! So much to respond to.  What makes a person a &quot;left wing Christian&quot;? Left wing, as in politically left leaning? Is the inference that Jesus is &quot;right wing&quot; meaning politically conservative? As defined by whom? Is Jesus, for example a Republican? Does that mean he supports the entire Republican platform? What&#039;s a typical &quot;left wing Christian?&quot; Is there a typical &quot;right wing Christian?&quot; I&#039;m either extremely naive or downright dishonest, you say. Are there no other options?  If a person thought that the state should only perform civil unions and let marriage be something that is performed by churches and religious communities, would that be outside your circle of orthodoxy? I said what I wanted to say about civil unions which is that someone that thought they were a good idea for whatever reasons shouldn&#039;t be excluded from evangelicalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brenda, Gee whiz! So much to respond to.  What makes a person a &#8220;left wing Christian&#8221;? Left wing, as in politically left leaning? Is the inference that Jesus is &#8220;right wing&#8221; meaning politically conservative? As defined by whom? Is Jesus, for example a Republican? Does that mean he supports the entire Republican platform? What&#8217;s a typical &#8220;left wing Christian?&#8221; Is there a typical &#8220;right wing Christian?&#8221; I&#8217;m either extremely naive or downright dishonest, you say. Are there no other options?  If a person thought that the state should only perform civil unions and let marriage be something that is performed by churches and religious communities, would that be outside your circle of orthodoxy? I said what I wanted to say about civil unions which is that someone that thought they were a good idea for whatever reasons shouldn&#8217;t be excluded from evangelicalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Brenda</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 04:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>Ken, you&#039;re really ducking the whole civil unions issue, aren&#039;t you?  Please: talking as though it had nothing to do with homosexual sex.  Comparing it to convents and monasteries! Please! Do you think we&#039;re dumb? You&#039;re either extremely naiive or you&#039;re downright dishonest because you aren&#039;t willing to risk your pastoral credentials and say you don&#039;t think homosexual sex is a sin! You&#039;re a typical left wing Christian who wants to ignore God&#039;s commands when you disagree with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, you&#8217;re really ducking the whole civil unions issue, aren&#8217;t you?  Please: talking as though it had nothing to do with homosexual sex.  Comparing it to convents and monasteries! Please! Do you think we&#8217;re dumb? You&#8217;re either extremely naiive or you&#8217;re downright dishonest because you aren&#8217;t willing to risk your pastoral credentials and say you don&#8217;t think homosexual sex is a sin! You&#8217;re a typical left wing Christian who wants to ignore God&#8217;s commands when you disagree with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1385</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1385</guid>
		<description>Ok.  So how we got ourselves into trouble is not a determining factor in how or when we give assistance and care. I guess this is a matter of what kind of care one should provide. The alcoholic is encouraged to go through a process that will lead to abstinence and we should support that effort in all possible ways. The alcohol in itself is not evil but, because of the users condition one drink could be opening the flood gates for more problems. I would not say to this person, &quot;you got yourself into this mess now get yourself out&quot;. I would not question him in order to determine if he is worthy of help. But, I would take great care in the prescribing of assistance that does not address behavior. A hungry person needs bread because the body requires food to repair and maintain itself. How does food for the hungry and condoms for the sexually active relate at all to each other?  

Perhaps, after assisting the beaten man and providing food and shelter, the Samaritan finds the same man on the road in the same condition.  At that point we provide assistance and maybe suggest an alternate route. We are caring for not only his physical needs at this point and are now moving in the direction of guidance. 

I am speaking philosophically about things that ought to be and I appreciate you taking the time to work through these things with me. I understand that in the current situation it is impractical to consider battling the AIDS epidemic without providing condoms. I am not a missionary and I certainly don&#039;t know what I would do if I were in that situation facing such despair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok.  So how we got ourselves into trouble is not a determining factor in how or when we give assistance and care. I guess this is a matter of what kind of care one should provide. The alcoholic is encouraged to go through a process that will lead to abstinence and we should support that effort in all possible ways. The alcohol in itself is not evil but, because of the users condition one drink could be opening the flood gates for more problems. I would not say to this person, &#8220;you got yourself into this mess now get yourself out&#8221;. I would not question him in order to determine if he is worthy of help. But, I would take great care in the prescribing of assistance that does not address behavior. A hungry person needs bread because the body requires food to repair and maintain itself. How does food for the hungry and condoms for the sexually active relate at all to each other?  </p>
<p>Perhaps, after assisting the beaten man and providing food and shelter, the Samaritan finds the same man on the road in the same condition.  At that point we provide assistance and maybe suggest an alternate route. We are caring for not only his physical needs at this point and are now moving in the direction of guidance. </p>
<p>I am speaking philosophically about things that ought to be and I appreciate you taking the time to work through these things with me. I understand that in the current situation it is impractical to consider battling the AIDS epidemic without providing condoms. I am not a missionary and I certainly don&#8217;t know what I would do if I were in that situation facing such despair.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1373</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1373</guid>
		<description>Casey, &quot;Condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. As Christians, shouldn’t we try to work from a position closest to the word of God as possible? Shouldn’t we be concerned with what ought to be in cooperation with Gods word. How much of that involves ignoring him and then trying to solve the problems we create.&quot;

Casey, If I understood you correctly, I think we&#039;re not supposed to take into account how it is that people got themselves into trouble so much as helping them out of it.  Missionaries in Africa face people suffering from AIDS all the time and have to decide how to help them.  Unless the parable of the good Samaritan means nothing.  And of course, many of those who have AIDS received it through various means--children whose mothers were infected themselves become infected, and then marry, and then yes, if they need condoms, they should be given just as we&#039;d give a hungry person a piece of bread.  The gospel of Jesus is the good news for the poor.  I think God&#039;s word is absolutely clear about love requiring us to care for our fellows according to their needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Casey, &#8220;Condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. As Christians, shouldn’t we try to work from a position closest to the word of God as possible? Shouldn’t we be concerned with what ought to be in cooperation with Gods word. How much of that involves ignoring him and then trying to solve the problems we create.&#8221;</p>
<p>Casey, If I understood you correctly, I think we&#8217;re not supposed to take into account how it is that people got themselves into trouble so much as helping them out of it.  Missionaries in Africa face people suffering from AIDS all the time and have to decide how to help them.  Unless the parable of the good Samaritan means nothing.  And of course, many of those who have AIDS received it through various means&#8211;children whose mothers were infected themselves become infected, and then marry, and then yes, if they need condoms, they should be given just as we&#8217;d give a hungry person a piece of bread.  The gospel of Jesus is the good news for the poor.  I think God&#8217;s word is absolutely clear about love requiring us to care for our fellows according to their needs.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1369</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1369</guid>
		<description>Ken, I understand that I may have been making a leap in regards to defining civil unions to include sex.  Perhaps, R. Cizik did not mean to include civil unions based on sex in his comment. I can&#039;t ascertain this meaning from the excerpt provided. Brotherhoods or sisterhoods or monastaries are indeed committed unions in terms of where they commune together but, their unions are in commitment to God more than to each other. I imagine that if two people choose to live together in all sincerity to honor God in their hearts and actions this would indeed be an appropriate union.  

On contraception, I am conflicted between stewardship and following God&#039;s word. I wonder how much of our sexual drive comes from the fall. C.S. Lewis gave the analogy of a strip tease involving a pork chop. How we might think this type of behavior odd to get excited and go about smacking our lips and thinking about pork chops all day. Lewis made the connection that our sex drive may be of the same sort of depravity and was the result of sin. From depravity we attempt to place bandages over sin in the attempt to be right with God. Condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. As Christians, shouldn&#039;t we try to work from a position closest to the word of God as possible? Shouldn&#039;t we be concerned with what ought to be in cooperation with Gods word.  How much of that involves ignoring him and then trying to solve the problems we create. I agree the state&#039;s concerns and our concerns as christians will ultimately be different. To say that procreation is God&#039;s gift to us and his command to fill the earth is not mocked when we artificially prevent creation is a sort of mockery in my opinion. Again, I am conflicted and I am trying to work out my own thoughts on these matters. 

Thank you, for your thoughtful responses</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, I understand that I may have been making a leap in regards to defining civil unions to include sex.  Perhaps, R. Cizik did not mean to include civil unions based on sex in his comment. I can&#8217;t ascertain this meaning from the excerpt provided. Brotherhoods or sisterhoods or monastaries are indeed committed unions in terms of where they commune together but, their unions are in commitment to God more than to each other. I imagine that if two people choose to live together in all sincerity to honor God in their hearts and actions this would indeed be an appropriate union.  </p>
<p>On contraception, I am conflicted between stewardship and following God&#8217;s word. I wonder how much of our sexual drive comes from the fall. C.S. Lewis gave the analogy of a strip tease involving a pork chop. How we might think this type of behavior odd to get excited and go about smacking our lips and thinking about pork chops all day. Lewis made the connection that our sex drive may be of the same sort of depravity and was the result of sin. From depravity we attempt to place bandages over sin in the attempt to be right with God. Condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. As Christians, shouldn&#8217;t we try to work from a position closest to the word of God as possible? Shouldn&#8217;t we be concerned with what ought to be in cooperation with Gods word.  How much of that involves ignoring him and then trying to solve the problems we create. I agree the state&#8217;s concerns and our concerns as christians will ultimately be different. To say that procreation is God&#8217;s gift to us and his command to fill the earth is not mocked when we artificially prevent creation is a sort of mockery in my opinion. Again, I am conflicted and I am trying to work out my own thoughts on these matters. </p>
<p>Thank you, for your thoughtful responses</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1367</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1367</guid>
		<description>Casey, I see.  I think it might be a little be strong to say that these perspectives mock God&#039;s creative purpose.  Mock usually implies utter contempt. My wife and I practice contraception.  We at least two of our kids while using contraception, as a matter of fact.  We weren&#039;t mocking God&#039;s creative purpose, I don&#039;t think.  We were just trying to be good stewards of our lives and trying to not have more children than we could care for.  We ended up with five, which was plenty. There are times, I think, when it&#039;s irresponsible not to use contraception, as when a man with AIDS has sex with his wife without a condom.  Even the Catholic church
agrees that there are times when it is appropriate to have sex while seeking to prevent pregnancy through birth control (the sympto-thermal method.)

On civil unions: I&#039;m not aware that civil unions specify whether or not the partners of the union are expected to have sex (as is the case with marriage.) I believe that failure to consumate marriage has always been grounds to annul the marriage (in the case of catholic church teaching) or to end the marriage (in the case of the state&#039;s recognition of marriage.) Again, there are church communities that have arranged for same sex people to be in a form of committed union (albeit without sexual intimacy), called brotherhoods or sisterhoods or monastaries. These groupings can be a stable family unit for adopting children. I know a catholic sisterhood that does this.  In the case of &quot;civil unions&quot; I think the state is and ought to be uninterested in the exact nature of the relationship between the parties involved when it comes to sex or the absence of sex. Whether a Christian thinks the state should be in the business of providing civil unions or not seems to me to be a great example of a debatable issue among Christians. Some would say it&#039;s fine, others would say it&#039;s not a good idea.  But it wouldn&#039;t be a position that would necessarily constitute mocking God&#039;s creative purpose, in my understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Casey, I see.  I think it might be a little be strong to say that these perspectives mock God&#8217;s creative purpose.  Mock usually implies utter contempt. My wife and I practice contraception.  We at least two of our kids while using contraception, as a matter of fact.  We weren&#8217;t mocking God&#8217;s creative purpose, I don&#8217;t think.  We were just trying to be good stewards of our lives and trying to not have more children than we could care for.  We ended up with five, which was plenty. There are times, I think, when it&#8217;s irresponsible not to use contraception, as when a man with AIDS has sex with his wife without a condom.  Even the Catholic church<br />
agrees that there are times when it is appropriate to have sex while seeking to prevent pregnancy through birth control (the sympto-thermal method.)</p>
<p>On civil unions: I&#8217;m not aware that civil unions specify whether or not the partners of the union are expected to have sex (as is the case with marriage.) I believe that failure to consumate marriage has always been grounds to annul the marriage (in the case of catholic church teaching) or to end the marriage (in the case of the state&#8217;s recognition of marriage.) Again, there are church communities that have arranged for same sex people to be in a form of committed union (albeit without sexual intimacy), called brotherhoods or sisterhoods or monastaries. These groupings can be a stable family unit for adopting children. I know a catholic sisterhood that does this.  In the case of &#8220;civil unions&#8221; I think the state is and ought to be uninterested in the exact nature of the relationship between the parties involved when it comes to sex or the absence of sex. Whether a Christian thinks the state should be in the business of providing civil unions or not seems to me to be a great example of a debatable issue among Christians. Some would say it&#8217;s fine, others would say it&#8217;s not a good idea.  But it wouldn&#8217;t be a position that would necessarily constitute mocking God&#8217;s creative purpose, in my understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1366</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1366</guid>
		<description>Contraception and civil unions. God&#039;s creative process is to bring life through sex between a man and a woman. In both practices that R. Cizik personally condones life is not a possible outcome. That appears to mock God&#039;s creative process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Contraception and civil unions. God&#8217;s creative process is to bring life through sex between a man and a woman. In both practices that R. Cizik personally condones life is not a possible outcome. That appears to mock God&#8217;s creative process.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/12/13/rich-cizik-and-the-boundaries-of-a-movement-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-1360</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=230#comment-1360</guid>
		<description>Casey, Which two issues are you referring to where R. Cizik said anything that mocked God&#039;s creative purpose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Casey, Which two issues are you referring to where R. Cizik said anything that mocked God&#8217;s creative purpose?</p>
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