Comments on: final authority: church, bible, Jesus? http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/ one step closer Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:41:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Martha http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1305 Martha Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:56:45 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1305 The role of the Holy Spirit in all this isn't simply an idea revived by Pentecostals and Charismatics, of course. In talking about the authority of both the Scriptures and the Church, it's my understanding that the Catholic Church always assumed the protective action of the Holy Spirit. Catholicism doesn't claim to have never gone off track, only that the Holy Spirit is constantly shepherding her and protecting her from ultimate error. The relevant passage is the one where Jesus promises that the Comforter he will send will "remind you of everything I've told you and will lead you into all truth." So the Holy Spirit is the means by which Jesus himself--the final authority--is actively engaged in administering that authority "to the end of the age." I figure that no matter how one imagines the mechanism or arranges the means theologically, Christ ends up being the ultimate authority. And of course, it doesn't matter how we understand it, really. He's just doing it. There is great relief in simply being confident that all our thrashing around is covered by grace. The role of the Holy Spirit in all this isn’t simply an idea revived by Pentecostals and Charismatics, of course. In talking about the authority of both the Scriptures and the Church, it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church always assumed the protective action of the Holy Spirit. Catholicism doesn’t claim to have never gone off track, only that the Holy Spirit is constantly shepherding her and protecting her from ultimate error. The relevant passage is the one where Jesus promises that the Comforter he will send will “remind you of everything I’ve told you and will lead you into all truth.” So the Holy Spirit is the means by which Jesus himself–the final authority–is actively engaged in administering that authority “to the end of the age.”

I figure that no matter how one imagines the mechanism or arranges the means theologically, Christ ends up being the ultimate authority. And of course, it doesn’t matter how we understand it, really. He’s just doing it. There is great relief in simply being confident that all our thrashing around is covered by grace.

]]> By: Duke http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1304 Duke Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:25:32 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1304 Well...! Yessss! How do we know what Jesus is speaking to us? How do we know it is him? We know it because we know the master's voice. We know it because our brothers and sisters in Christ will correct us when we are mistaken. We allow ourselves to be corrected because we are humble and are imperfect and require correction. We know this. And this is what it means to kneel before God and ask for his guidance. Does this mean that we are submitting to mob rule? No. No. Absolutely not. We are submitting to Jesus given to us individually and given to us together. We have his character in mind, because of his sayings in the Gospels. We are always guided by what he said and what he did. Who he is among us today is consistent with who he is in the Gospels. But he is a free God. Consistent but free to act in new ways to bring us to him today. Well…! Yessss! How do we know what Jesus is speaking to us? How do we know it is him? We know it because we know the master’s voice. We know it because our brothers and sisters in Christ will correct us when we are mistaken. We allow ourselves to be corrected because we are humble and are imperfect and require correction. We know this. And this is what it means to kneel before God and ask for his guidance. Does this mean that we are submitting to mob rule? No. No. Absolutely not. We are submitting to Jesus given to us individually and given to us together. We have his character in mind, because of his sayings in the Gospels. We are always guided by what he said and what he did. Who he is among us today is consistent with who he is in the Gospels. But he is a free God. Consistent but free to act in new ways to bring us to him today.

]]> By: metler http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1301 metler Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:26:18 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1301 Gem, EXACTLY! Ken, As Jesus says: John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. Rom. 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Grace stops seeming like a contradiction when we start with the son. The good news becomes absolutely good. Nothing really is too wonderful to be true, with the throne in this perspective. Raising the dead as a command from one who does it, feeding the poor then is kingdom work, and loving your enemies becomes reality. Forgiving in heaven as on earth etc. is no longer an arguable point, but a reality. When we switch from a point of study or authority to the relationship it is very clear. Again a most excellent post. Gem, EXACTLY!

Ken,

As Jesus says:

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Rom. 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Grace stops seeming like a contradiction when we start with the son. The good news becomes absolutely good. Nothing really is too wonderful to be true, with the throne in this perspective.

Raising the dead as a command from one who does it, feeding the poor then is kingdom work, and loving your enemies becomes reality. Forgiving in heaven as on earth etc. is no longer an arguable point, but a reality. When we switch from a point of study or authority to the relationship it is very clear.

Again a most excellent post.

]]> By: metler http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1299 metler Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:41:12 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1299 Excellent. Simply excellent. Excellent.

Simply excellent.

]]> By: gem http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1298 gem Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:32:45 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1298 Ken, we would probably judge less. We would spend less time believing that our camp is right, just because we have the best theologians. We would look beyond the positions that people have that disagree with us, see the people, and realize that someone else can make the final decision. We would begin to understand that love does cover a multitude of sins and no interpretation of scripture can. We would realize that we have the authority to forgive. Ken, we would probably judge less. We would spend less time believing that our camp is right, just because we have the best theologians. We would look beyond the positions that people have that disagree with us, see the people, and realize that someone else can make the final decision. We would begin to understand that love does cover a multitude of sins and no interpretation of scripture can. We would realize that we have the authority to forgive.

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1297 ken Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:31:38 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1297 gem, I suppose the question posed by my musing is: how would we regard the Bible (and the Church for that matter) if our answer to the authority question (or our emphasis, at least) was not on either the church or the Bible first and foremost but, first and foremost, on the Son to whom complete authority has been entrusted? It's a matter of elevating the living Jesus as the locus of authority, not demoting the bible, which I think would be experienced as a more powerful word if we had a more vivid sense of the Son as the final authority. Certainly Jesus seems to have interpreted the Bible as though he were Lord over it. gem, I suppose the question posed by my musing is: how would we regard the Bible (and the Church for that matter) if our answer to the authority question (or our emphasis, at least) was not on either the church or the Bible first and foremost but, first and foremost, on the Son to whom complete authority has been entrusted? It’s a matter of elevating the living Jesus as the locus of authority, not demoting the bible, which I think would be experienced as a more powerful word if we had a more vivid sense of the Son as the final authority. Certainly Jesus seems to have interpreted the Bible as though he were Lord over it.

]]> By: Phil http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1296 Phil Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:55:00 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1296 Ken said: "if we understood that Jesus himself–a living and active word–is the Word, the Final Word, in person?" I think you are finally responding to the question I asked in this post..twice..so thanks! http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/08/22/modernist-literalist-actualist-a-third-way-of-reading-the-words/ I think there needs to be some unlearning or relearning that defines Jesus as the Word of God, not the bible. I would also like to see the Gospel be a Who (Jesus), not a what...something Jay Pathak (Arvada Vineyard Pastor) said in a sermon several years back. I am not looking to diminish the role of the bible or its influence on my life, b/c it has single handedly turned my world upside down and I am still haunted by a lot of the words that challenge everything I ever have thought, do think and will have thought. I am so thankful for it. Ken said: “if we understood that Jesus himself–a living and active word–is the Word, the Final Word, in person?”

I think you are finally responding to the question I asked in this post..twice..so thanks! http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/08/22/modernist-literalist-actualist-a-third-way-of-reading-the-words/

I think there needs to be some unlearning or relearning that defines Jesus as the Word of God, not the bible. I would also like to see the Gospel be a Who (Jesus), not a what…something Jay Pathak (Arvada Vineyard Pastor) said in a sermon several years back.

I am not looking to diminish the role of the bible or its influence on my life, b/c it has single handedly turned my world upside down and I am still haunted by a lot of the words that challenge everything I ever have thought, do think and will have thought. I am so thankful for it.

]]> By: gem http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1295 gem Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:36:46 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1295 Ah…the mystical side of Christianity. And I mean Ah in a contemplative sort of way. I have always been uncomfortable around Christians who talk like Jesus is in a continual conversation with them. Some of my best friends speak this way. I have had moments where I have been moved with great compassion for someone, or God, but it is always hard for me to separate my own feelings from what the Spirit may or may not be doing within me. I know…I just need to listen more and do something different. But after 20 years on the evangelical charismatic mystery tour, I still haven't figured it out. So the One who is the final authority, seems to exercise very little of it in my life. Or at least what my perception would be of someone who is an authority. He seems to be a different kind of authority, which leads me to question both those who talk like he is always speaking to them and those that claim to speak authoritatively in his name. The only authority he seems to exercise in my life is one of gentle persuasion. It could be the scriptures that I have read. It could be the Holy Spirit. It could be a mix of both. The bible I can see and touch. The corporate church I can see and touch. Does the final authority Jesus, exercise his authority through these tools? When we say final authority, does this mean he is the current authority? Is the authority he is exercising today different from the authority he will exercise in finality? We read, "Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life; God’s wrath rests on him.” How are we to obey him as we live these fallible lives, lest God's wrath falls on us? It is fear that drives us to the tangible. Ah…the mystical side of Christianity. And I mean Ah in a contemplative sort of way. I have always been uncomfortable around Christians who talk like Jesus is in a continual conversation with them. Some of my best friends speak this way. I have had moments where I have been moved with great compassion for someone, or God, but it is always hard for me to separate my own feelings from what the Spirit may or may not be doing within me. I know…I just need to listen more and do something different. But after 20 years on the evangelical charismatic mystery tour, I still haven’t figured it out.

So the One who is the final authority, seems to exercise very little of it in my life. Or at least what my perception would be of someone who is an authority. He seems to be a different kind of authority, which leads me to question both those who talk like he is always speaking to them and those that claim to speak authoritatively in his name. The only authority he seems to exercise in my life is one of gentle persuasion. It could be the scriptures that I have read. It could be the Holy Spirit. It could be a mix of both.

The bible I can see and touch. The corporate church I can see and touch. Does the final authority Jesus, exercise his authority through these tools? When we say final authority, does this mean he is the current authority? Is the authority he is exercising today different from the authority he will exercise in finality? We read, “Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life; God’s wrath rests on him.” How are we to obey him as we live these fallible lives, lest God’s wrath falls on us? It is fear that drives us to the tangible.

]]> By: ken http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1294 ken Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:54:46 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1294 Nickolas, This was more of a post on the location of "final authority"; that it is retained by Jesus, who is the living word. That's the father's answer to the question, "what is our final authority" I was contrasting this answer with the emphasis that is sometimes place on the Bible as the final authority, as contrasted with the church as the final authority. Somehow, in that dispute (between catholics and reformation protestants) have we forgotten that the answer Jesus gave was that HE had been entrusted with complete authority. The Bible is our book because it was his book and he is the one authorized to interpret the book. (As when he overruled the kosher law in the vision given to Peter. Remember how shocked Peter was at first?) Acknowledging JEsus as the answer to the authority qeustion wouldn't diminish the bible, but if anything make it a more powerful window into God's heart, etc. Nickolas, This was more of a post on the location of “final authority”; that it is retained by Jesus, who is the living word. That’s the father’s answer to the question, “what is our final authority” I was contrasting this answer with the emphasis that is sometimes place on the Bible as the final authority, as contrasted with the church as the final authority.
Somehow, in that dispute (between catholics and reformation protestants) have we forgotten that the answer Jesus gave was that HE had been entrusted with complete authority. The Bible is our book because it was his book and he is the one authorized to interpret the book. (As when he overruled the kosher law in the vision given to Peter. Remember how shocked Peter was at first?) Acknowledging JEsus as the answer to the authority qeustion wouldn’t diminish the bible, but if anything make it a more powerful window into God’s heart, etc.

]]> By: Nickolas http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/11/25/final-authority-church-bible-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1293 Nickolas Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:18:38 +0000 http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=191#comment-1293 Hmmm, you know me well enough that I love the direction and wisdom we receive from our Lord (directly--through our spirit), but many have fallen in a "gutter," if you will, because of something they heard the Lord "telling" them to do . . . how do you judge the leading that you're getting, if you don't balance it against His written Word? Hmmm, you know me well enough that I love the direction and wisdom we receive from our Lord (directly–through our spirit), but many have fallen in a “gutter,” if you will, because of something they heard the Lord “telling” them to do . . . how do you judge the leading that you’re getting, if you don’t balance it against His written Word?

]]>