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	<title>Comments on: evangelical or evangel? only your hairdresser knows for sure</title>
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	<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/</link>
	<description>one step closer</description>
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		<title>By: Archie</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1453</link>
		<dc:creator>Archie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1453</guid>
		<description>Ann, I appreciate what you said about honesty, &quot;I can only be truthful about what I believe.&quot; The principle of being honest with others and with oneself has come to mean a lot to me over the last several years. Thanks for putting your thoughts into those words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann, I appreciate what you said about honesty, &#8220;I can only be truthful about what I believe.&#8221; The principle of being honest with others and with oneself has come to mean a lot to me over the last several years. Thanks for putting your thoughts into those words.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1445</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1445</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the delay in responding.  I can see real possibilities of his gloomy predictions happening.  Before reading that 2012 letter I had heard that the Christian-based dating service, e-Harmony, was being forced to offer a service to homosexuals.   I wondered if they would close down, since if I were the owner that is what I would be compelled to do.  And since I&#039;ve opened the can...let me also say that I am not a hater or a judge (and don&#039;t believe the majority of others with this belief are either) , and love gays the same as I do others.  In my family, 2 out of 4 of my cousins are gay.  Actually, my heart goes out to gay people since I believe that many have suffered a past hurt or series of hurts, perhaps unrecognized, and are only trying to fulfill a God-given need of being loved.  Also, because of a past deviance of my own.  I know there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and I hope I haven&#039;t upset anyone since that is not my intention.  I can only be truthful about what I believe.  I&#039;m more focused on spiritual stuff than political, so don&#039;t want to spend too much energy on that aspect.  I do think Christians should be engaged in shaping the culture as we witness and as we live. What is the Vineyard Org. view on homosexuality?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the delay in responding.  I can see real possibilities of his gloomy predictions happening.  Before reading that 2012 letter I had heard that the Christian-based dating service, e-Harmony, was being forced to offer a service to homosexuals.   I wondered if they would close down, since if I were the owner that is what I would be compelled to do.  And since I&#8217;ve opened the can&#8230;let me also say that I am not a hater or a judge (and don&#8217;t believe the majority of others with this belief are either) , and love gays the same as I do others.  In my family, 2 out of 4 of my cousins are gay.  Actually, my heart goes out to gay people since I believe that many have suffered a past hurt or series of hurts, perhaps unrecognized, and are only trying to fulfill a God-given need of being loved.  Also, because of a past deviance of my own.  I know there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and I hope I haven&#8217;t upset anyone since that is not my intention.  I can only be truthful about what I believe.  I&#8217;m more focused on spiritual stuff than political, so don&#8217;t want to spend too much energy on that aspect.  I do think Christians should be engaged in shaping the culture as we witness and as we live. What is the Vineyard Org. view on homosexuality?</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1287</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1287</guid>
		<description>Ann,  Thanks for this thoughtful post. I&#039;d be interested in your take on the Dobson letter (2012) that I referenced in my latest post.  I&#039;ve voted for my share of Republicans over the years but wouldn&#039;t describe myself as right wing.  So I&#039;d be interested on your take on the Dobson letter or whether you see a problem with evangelicals adopting this &quot;culture war&quot; metaphor as the way we engage the culture around us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann,  Thanks for this thoughtful post. I&#8217;d be interested in your take on the Dobson letter (2012) that I referenced in my latest post.  I&#8217;ve voted for my share of Republicans over the years but wouldn&#8217;t describe myself as right wing.  So I&#8217;d be interested on your take on the Dobson letter or whether you see a problem with evangelicals adopting this &#8220;culture war&#8221; metaphor as the way we engage the culture around us.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1284</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1284</guid>
		<description>Ok, I&#039;m already not clear on what to call myself since I don&#039;t fit into any box or denomination/church.  If I had to say I&#039;m one of those right wing conservative Evangelicals (don&#039;t be hate&#039;in), but with charismatic/Pentecostal leanings.  I believe that the Bible is the true &amp; Holy Word of God, is error-free &amp; unchanging.  I also believe that the Holy Spirit does call women to be pastors, and do not see where it is prohibited in God&#039;s Word.  Paul&#039;s statements in I Corin 14:34-35 &amp; I Timothy 2:11-12 need to be read in light of the entirety of scripture and along with Paul&#039;s other statements and practices.  Biblical examples of women in ministry are:  Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Tabitha, Euodia &amp; Syntyche, Pricilla, Phoebe, Junia - who Paul identifies as an apostle in Romans 16:7, but translators after the 13th century masculinized her name to Junias.

The scriptures also need to be understood in the context and culture of that time with what was happening in the church at Corinth, which was this:  Women were previously not allowed to go into the inner court of the synagogue &amp; not allowed to speak there, but only listen from the women&#039;s section.  The new freedoms for women in the early church were causing some problems.  The women in that day were also for the most part uneducated &amp; they were calling out to their husbands who sat on the other side of the church - asking questions about what was being said, and therefore being disorderly (v.33)   This is way Paul was saying to the wives to ask their husbands (who were educated) at home.

Additionally - looking at I Corin 14:34-35 &quot;women should remain silent in the churches.  They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.&quot;

v. 34 mentions &quot;women&quot; and v.35 &quot;husbands&quot; - in the original Greek there is not a word for husband or wife, only man and woman.  v. 35 is referring to &quot;husbands&quot;, so v. 34 should have been translated as &quot;wives&quot; and not &quot;women&quot;, and so this was not pertaining to all women.

I Timothy 2:11-12 is a similar passage. The verses should have been translated as husband and wife, since the verses that immediately follow refer to Adam and Eve (husband &amp; wife).

Signed,  I can&#039;t keep silent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I&#8217;m already not clear on what to call myself since I don&#8217;t fit into any box or denomination/church.  If I had to say I&#8217;m one of those right wing conservative Evangelicals (don&#8217;t be hate&#8217;in), but with charismatic/Pentecostal leanings.  I believe that the Bible is the true &amp; Holy Word of God, is error-free &amp; unchanging.  I also believe that the Holy Spirit does call women to be pastors, and do not see where it is prohibited in God&#8217;s Word.  Paul&#8217;s statements in I Corin 14:34-35 &amp; I Timothy 2:11-12 need to be read in light of the entirety of scripture and along with Paul&#8217;s other statements and practices.  Biblical examples of women in ministry are:  Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Tabitha, Euodia &amp; Syntyche, Pricilla, Phoebe, Junia &#8211; who Paul identifies as an apostle in Romans 16:7, but translators after the 13th century masculinized her name to Junias.</p>
<p>The scriptures also need to be understood in the context and culture of that time with what was happening in the church at Corinth, which was this:  Women were previously not allowed to go into the inner court of the synagogue &amp; not allowed to speak there, but only listen from the women&#8217;s section.  The new freedoms for women in the early church were causing some problems.  The women in that day were also for the most part uneducated &amp; they were calling out to their husbands who sat on the other side of the church &#8211; asking questions about what was being said, and therefore being disorderly (v.33)   This is way Paul was saying to the wives to ask their husbands (who were educated) at home.</p>
<p>Additionally &#8211; looking at I Corin 14:34-35 &#8220;women should remain silent in the churches.  They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.&#8221;</p>
<p>v. 34 mentions &#8220;women&#8221; and v.35 &#8220;husbands&#8221; &#8211; in the original Greek there is not a word for husband or wife, only man and woman.  v. 35 is referring to &#8220;husbands&#8221;, so v. 34 should have been translated as &#8220;wives&#8221; and not &#8220;women&#8221;, and so this was not pertaining to all women.</p>
<p>I Timothy 2:11-12 is a similar passage. The verses should have been translated as husband and wife, since the verses that immediately follow refer to Adam and Eve (husband &amp; wife).</p>
<p>Signed,  I can&#8217;t keep silent.</p>
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		<title>By: Clif</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1152</link>
		<dc:creator>Clif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1152</guid>
		<description>THere are several passages of scripture where women are referenced as leaders, such as prophets. Other passages talk about all being one in Christ...&quot;neither bond nor free.... but all are one in Christ.&quot; These passages offer some contrasts to the often stated ones about women described above. THe whole of scripture helps us interpret.

However,I don&#039;t know of contrasting passages regarding homosexuality. But if anyone has any, please post. THat subject seems pretty clear from scripture. I would choose scripture over culture as my guide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THere are several passages of scripture where women are referenced as leaders, such as prophets. Other passages talk about all being one in Christ&#8230;&#8221;neither bond nor free&#8230;. but all are one in Christ.&#8221; These passages offer some contrasts to the often stated ones about women described above. THe whole of scripture helps us interpret.</p>
<p>However,I don&#8217;t know of contrasting passages regarding homosexuality. But if anyone has any, please post. THat subject seems pretty clear from scripture. I would choose scripture over culture as my guide.</p>
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		<title>By: Trenton</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>Trenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>Jim, your last comment is confusing to me. Are you the same jim that&#039;s been commenting this whole time? You seem to have switched sides on this issue... ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, your last comment is confusing to me. Are you the same jim that&#8217;s been commenting this whole time? You seem to have switched sides on this issue&#8230; ?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1094</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1094</guid>
		<description>a lot of the quotes that baptists use is from Paul.  Paul&#039;s writings to me is often confusing to me, and even Peter said this same thing, 2000 years ago.  Jesus was very straight forward in what he said and made it plain unless he spoke in parables.

Maybe we need to follow Jesus&#039;s example.  Make it simple and instead of some obscure scripture that always seems to be taken out of context.  

I only reason I think they do this is that it fits their thinking and how they have to have control over certain people like women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a lot of the quotes that baptists use is from Paul.  Paul&#8217;s writings to me is often confusing to me, and even Peter said this same thing, 2000 years ago.  Jesus was very straight forward in what he said and made it plain unless he spoke in parables.</p>
<p>Maybe we need to follow Jesus&#8217;s example.  Make it simple and instead of some obscure scripture that always seems to be taken out of context.  </p>
<p>I only reason I think they do this is that it fits their thinking and how they have to have control over certain people like women.</p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1080</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1080</guid>
		<description>Archie, right on! Jim, where&#039;s your evidence that the bible is god&#039;s inerrant word? God&#039;s precious, priceless gift to each of us is Reason, which tells us that ALL humans are god&#039;s children, that the purpose of life in this world is to grow in love and truth, and that to love god whom we can&#039;t see means that we love his children whom we can see! Amen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Archie, right on! Jim, where&#8217;s your evidence that the bible is god&#8217;s inerrant word? God&#8217;s precious, priceless gift to each of us is Reason, which tells us that ALL humans are god&#8217;s children, that the purpose of life in this world is to grow in love and truth, and that to love god whom we can&#8217;t see means that we love his children whom we can see! Amen!</p>
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		<title>By: Brenda</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1079</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1079</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not threatened. At least the literalists have the guts to say what they believe and stick by it, popular or not. Same with the people who just come out and say they don&#039;t believe the Bible is infallible, and it has wrong and bad ideas in it, but they read it anyway. The rest if this religious-left new-evangelical group here wants it both ways. The Bible is right and inspired and authoritative when it reinforces what I already believe is good (equality, pacifism). When I don&#039;t agree, then it&#039;s &quot;culturally&quot; limited, for just the ancient audience, or it was just Paul, so who cares? Churches like Vineyard are a big house of cards just waiting to collapse. If not the women pastor issue then homosexuality. If not that, then universalism. Mark my words! One leads to the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not threatened. At least the literalists have the guts to say what they believe and stick by it, popular or not. Same with the people who just come out and say they don&#8217;t believe the Bible is infallible, and it has wrong and bad ideas in it, but they read it anyway. The rest if this religious-left new-evangelical group here wants it both ways. The Bible is right and inspired and authoritative when it reinforces what I already believe is good (equality, pacifism). When I don&#8217;t agree, then it&#8217;s &#8220;culturally&#8221; limited, for just the ancient audience, or it was just Paul, so who cares? Churches like Vineyard are a big house of cards just waiting to collapse. If not the women pastor issue then homosexuality. If not that, then universalism. Mark my words! One leads to the other.</p>
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		<title>By: metler</title>
		<link>http://kenwilsononline.com/2008/09/30/evangelical-or-evangel-only-your-hairdresser-knows-for-sure/comment-page-1/#comment-1078</link>
		<dc:creator>metler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 01:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kenwilsononline.com/?p=142#comment-1078</guid>
		<description>1 cor 11... 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.  7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 

Also Paul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 cor 11&#8230; 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.  7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. </p>
<p>Also Paul.</p>
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